00:57: Introduction
02:10: What is the Zone of Genius?
04:14: Your zone of competence
10:39: Your zone of incompetence
15:00: Your zone of excellence
18:37: Your zone of genius
22:17: An exercise and AI prompt to analyse how much time you spend in different categories
30:09: Closing remarks
Hi, I’m Sarah. And I’m Helen. And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, where every week we borrow some brilliance and turn that curiosity into useful action for you and your career.
Helen Tupper: And before I tell you who we are borrowing brilliance from this week, I want to let you know that this is another episode that we are doing in partnership with Post-It Notes, because we love them and use them all the time and try to find as many ways as possible to bring them into our work. I was using them. Oh, I think I was talking about them on a session, a virtual session the other week.
Sarah Ellis: Did you get the old big yellow one out?
Helen Tupper: I got the lobster ones out. And I think everyone in the chat was like, they’re so amazing. And then I said, oh, you’ve not seen anything yet. You’ve not seen my Post-It Big Notes. And then somebody messaged me afterwards. They’re like, where do I get these from?
Sarah Ellis: The amount of times I send a link to those Post-It notes.
Helen Tupper: I know, I know, I know.
Sarah Ellis: But we do sometimes in a session, because I use them also as, like, a way to remind myself of, like, what’s coming next. Sometimes I will end up holding them up and people are like, wait a minute, what is that?
Sarah Ellis: It’s bigger than your hair.
Helen Tupper: It actually is. So we’re using them today because we use them pretty much every day. But I think they’re just a really good way of creating clarity. And I also think, like, two people can work on them together, which is what we’re going to do today, because we are going to talk about your Zone of Genius.
Sarah Ellis: I’ve been waiting for this episode. Did you just want me to tell you that you’re a genius? You finally realised that? We should talk about my zone of genius.
Helen Tupper: I’ve actually done this before we spoke. And your zone of genius is really small. Just to let you know. Just to let you know.
Sarah Ellis: That can’t be true. The model is flawed.
Helen Tupper: So I had heard about this. So we’re borrowing this brilliance from somebody called Gay Hendricks. And I have researched this a little bit. It came from me listening to Emma Grede’s Start With Yourself book.
Sarah Ellis: I know. I know you’re listening to that book because every day you send me quotes.
Helen Tupper: I really like it. Controversial. I know you do. We might. It might come on there. I do like Emma Gredes. Many reasons. It’s an interesting book.
Sarah Ellis: Right.
Helen Tupper: You might not agree with everything in it, but it definitely, definitely gets you thinking. But she mentions. She seems like a very curious person. Like she reads and journals every day. And so in the book, she mentions a lot of things that she’s read and why it’s helpful. Yeah, she’s kind of. She talks about theory and models and research, but in a very applied way.
Sarah Ellis: Nice.
Helen Tupper: And so she mentioned this I was sort of listening to at the audiobook and she mentioned Zone of Genius and why it was helpful. And I was like, oh, I might have a go at that. And I was making notes on my phone and I looked at it and I kind of looked into Gay Hendrick’s work and I thought. I sort of played with it myself and found it really, really helpful. Like it told me, it just made me think differently about how I was spending my time and whether I was having the most impact I could with my abilities. That was kind of my reflection. And also it’s a really nice blend of like, kind of putting things down on paper or on a Post-It and using a bit of AI. So I’ve kind of done. I’ve combined both in the episode.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, there is.
Helen Tupper: There are actually four zones that we’re going to talk about. Zone of Genius is the one that we want to aim for, but there are three other zones in which you may be spending some time. So I’m going to talk about what they are and Sarah and I are going to share some thoughts on what we do that is in each zone. And then I’m going to say how do you turn that reflection into something that’s really useful and you can kind of do something with. Ready to go?
Sarah Ellis: Ready
Helen Tupper: Okay, so we are going to start with the zone of competence. Okay, so this is where you can do something and actually you kind of maybe enjoy doing it. Like, you’re kind of competent and you enjoy doing it, but maybe you’re. There are. There are other people that you work with that are definitely better at this than you. So maybe you’re doing it because you always have, which is part of your job. But, you know, there are people in the team now that you work in that are better. So, for example, for me in here, I said, well, something that I like, I enjoy. And I’m. Okay, I quite like. I quite like sort of processes or a bit of a structure for how we like how we build the business or how we organise the team. And I quite like those things. But I recognise that there are people in a team that are just much better. Like, if I look at something like Microsoft Teams, a really good example here. Like, I like it because it’s got all these, you know, it’s got notes in there and it’s got loops in there and there’s different ways you could do it. But I know that there’s people in our team that just. They just optimise it way more. They’ve built structures for how that stuff works that is just way in advance of how I’m using it. So that’s kind of something that I put in there. I probably sort of process organisation. Some of those things would go in my kind of zone of competence. I quite enjoy doing it, but I’m definitely not the best person at it. What would you have in there?
Sarah Ellis: Do you have to enjoy it for it to be in your zone of competence? Or can it just be in your zone of competence?
Helen Tupper: Well, Gay Hendricks, the person that has kind of created these zones would say that it’s something that you do enjoy doing. But I would just say, if we want to make it a bit easier, it’s something that you spend time on at work today, that you recognise that there are people who could do it much better than you. That.
Sarah Ellis: Okay, so for me, probably like social media. Okay, that’s what’s more. That’s why the enjoyment question. Well, I suppose. Can I write a LinkedIn post?
Helen Tupper: Sometimes you send me messages. You sent me one this week and I think you were like, oh, I’ve had some really good response on this. So you did enjoy, you know, you put that message.
Sarah Ellis: Yes, I did quite enjoy that one. Yes, I did enjoy that one. To finish Helen’s sentence there, I did put a post up. I was doing a panel on hiring, on recruitment, which is not my area of expertise. I was sort of bringing squiggly career community perspective and also more once you’ve got into a company, like how to learn and grow and why people might leave if they’re not learning and growing. So I put something on LinkedIn, sort of asking people for their experiences so I could try and represent people, I suppose, like, accurately and usefully. And just so many people came back to me. So actually I did enjoy that. So, yeah, I suppose, like posting on LinkedIn photos for Instagram, just photos generally. Don’t know. Do you know? Like, I. I think I rationally know why some of those things are important for, like, for our company and for the work that we do. And I can do them and sometimes I enjoy them, but I think I’m very, very far away from being the best person to do them.
Helen Tupper: What was that photo? I know it was like your other half that I think made this even more of an elaborate process. It’s like a really nice photo of you. Oh, it’s a Sunday Time bestseller one. Yeah. And Sarah was like, I had to take that photo how many times.
Sarah Ellis: Well, put Tom in charge of it because he was. It was us holding the newspaper, being like, we got to number one and I just wanted to take a quick photograph. And it was a Sunday, so you know when you’re like, can you just take the photo? But he’s actually really good at. He’s good at photography. He takes really good photos. And so I was like, oh, I should. But I tried to selfie and I couldn’t do it, so I did have to ask him. And then he, like, wasn’t happy with the first, like, three versions. And then there was, like, new ways of taking this photo happening. And by the end of it, I was like, that’s a. I was like, oh, I should have, I should have tried harder on the selfie that took so long. But people, lots of people did comment on that photo.
Helen Tupper: It’s a really good photo. Perhaps it is in Tom’s zone of excellence, which is the zone we’re coming to. But I don’t, I don’t want to skip ahead. Okay, so. And I’ll show. This is kind of what we’re working up. So I’m going to show everybody the. The kind of four zones once we’ve gone through them all. So the first is a zone of competence. And you’re just going to write down, if you’re doing this yourself, just write down, like, what do I do today? That’s kind of in that zone. So Sarah would write social media, I’d write, like, process organisation, like Microsoft Teams type stuff. And the next one is your zone of incompetence might be the uncomfortable zone, but this is stuff that you are spending time on in your job where you know you’re not very good at it and you also don’t enjoy it. And who knows how much time you’ve got in here? We’ll kind of get onto that point. But for me, for example, I put in here things that I don’t think I’m very good at and I don’t really enjoy doing, but, like business admin.
Sarah Ellis: So running our company,
Helen Tupper: I was. I was actually listening. Oh, funny enough, I was actually listening to Emma Grede this morning while I was getting ready. I still haven’t finished the book. And she was talking about whether founders should be CEOs. And I was like, interesting to reflect on, given what you kind of enjoy doing. And I. But partly this is because somebody who’s very good in our team is currently on maternity leave and I’m filling a few of those gaps. That’s probably more what this is about at the moment. Um, because there are some routine tasks that I am doing that I both don’t think I’m the best person at because they’ve got quite a high level of detail. Payroll will be one of those that’s quite important and it requires a lot of attention to detail.
Sarah Ellis: Our team, who are listening to this. How reassured would you feel right now?
Helen Tupper: I mean, I work really hard on it, but it does not come easy to me because I have to, like, remember to do it on a certain date and check all the numbers.
Sarah Ellis: I walked in on you doing it yesterday because we were in two meeting rooms side by side and you were like, I’m doing payroll. So I just walked back out the room again.
Helen Tupper: I did note that you were like, I respect that you’re doing this and I’m out.
Sarah Ellis: Do you want a coffee?
Helen Tupper: So sweet. So that goes in my zone of incompetence. Sorry, everybody. Business admin. And also, this is a funny one. I put, like, passive meetings. I’m just not good at passive.
Sarah Ellis: I love how angry you get in the way. Oh, my gosh. But I find it really funny to see you in them. So it’s worth it every so often just to watch your face.
Helen Tupper: What do I do?
Sarah Ellis: Well, you just look really frustrated, and then usually whatever you say is just really aggressive, quite snappy. And I’m like, oh, I love it. A snappy head. I find. I just find it really funny.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, well, I just. I don’t enjoy them because I’m like, I could totally be spending my time in a better way. And I also don’t think I’m very good at them. I’m literally adding no value. So, yeah, any passive meetings are just like, I hate it. I hate, like, I don’t say hate that often at work, but I hate. I hate a passive meeting. What would fit in your zone of incompetence, do you think?
Sarah Ellis: I try not to do too much in this area, and I do think it is. When I was reflecting on this and we were preparing, I think my zone of incompetence was much bigger before I ran my own company. I think when you are in a position to define more of what you do, hopefully this zone gets smaller. And maybe not for everyone. I don’t know. That’s just been my experience. I think my zone of incompetence is anytime I’m involved in anything where you’re trying to make something existing better. Because if you’re trying to make something more efficient. So, like, sometimes when we work on things together, like we say with our team, and we’ll be like, right, and we’re doing a bit of this at the moment, like, how to make this. How to make this process more efficient, or how to make these ways of working more efficient. And I want it to be more efficient. And sometimes I have to be involved in those things because they’re really fundamental to, like, our company and how we work. But I just think, oh, like one, I ask questions that are not helpful. You get a bit mad at me sometimes, like, so I’ll ask, like, you know, like, bigger questions are not helpful in that moment. But I find that really hard. I find it hard to turn that part of my brain off. Which you do sometimes have to do because you’re like, yes, but we need to make this 10% more efficient. So I’m like, okay, then I don’t think I’m naturally that good at making things more efficient. I think there are just, like, other people who are loads better. But sometimes you, you know, as, like, the two founders of our company is ultimately, like, sometimes our accountability to make things better, to make things that already exist better. Podcast. I’m not the right person to make the podcast process better. But we both have to do that, right? Like, we. We’ve changed how we do the podcast because people annoyingly started watching it. It’s outrageous. For everyone watching. Hi, thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks, guys. And so, yeah, like, that’s a good example, right? And we need to be efficient with that. Because if we’re not efficient with how we design the process behind the podcast, which is very different to the research and talking about the content and things, and you can’t do that without me because you’re like, we have to sort of do that together. We’re in it together. We’re in it together. And I would say I’m not very competent at it. And then it ends up getting. I think sometimes I just make things more messy and more complicated. And you’re, like, trying to do the exact, like, opposite of that.
Helen Tupper: Are you looking for me to deny that?
Sarah Ellis: Just. Just to cheque? Okay, no, well, I know.
Helen Tupper: I think, I think anything that is about efficiency, like, where that is a thing, I think you just, you’re just, you’re far more driven by quality and integrity and meaning. And so when it’s like, we’ve got to get it done on this day in this way, this morning.
Sarah Ellis: Well, come on, we should start an hour later. Because if we start an hour later, it will just give us more time this morning to, like, connect and, like, reflect on what we’re going to talk about. And then I thought if I suggest that to Helen now, she will get really mad because we have got a lot of podcasts to record.
Helen Tupper: I would have just taken a deep breath and said, okay, let’s just work through the impacts of that and then we can.
Sarah Ellis: But maybe not on the day, right? Like, even I have got enough judgement to go, yes, but that’s in 45 minutes time. In 45 minutes time, we are meant to be starting. And then I go, it’s like the opposite of being efficient, right? It’s like, I don’t know, it’s being effective, but it’s not efficient.
Helen Tupper: It’s more when you go, I just don’t think we should do it. It’s more, you know, like, I don’t. Like, I think we should do it differently. I’d be like, okay, let’s just talk about that and the impact of that right now. But it’s that sometimes when you’re in that zone
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I don’t actually like things being inefficient.
Helen Tupper: Yeah.
Sarah Ellis: So if something is very, very inefficient, I then get to the point of going, let’s just opt out.
Helen Tupper: Yeah.
Sarah Ellis: Which I don’t think I do as much anymore.
Helen Tupper: I agree.
Sarah Ellis: I haven’t done that for a while.
Helen Tupper: I agree. I agree.
Sarah Ellis: It’s been a while since.
Helen Tupper: Well, we might come on to how much. How much time is spent in this box.
Sarah Ellis: Okay. So that’s a total two.
Helen Tupper: He’s got zone of competence, Zone of incompetence.
Sarah Ellis: These are the nicer ones now.
Helen Tupper: Yeah. I was gonna say, like, these two are, like, not. Not that fun. Not great stuff. I mean, if you’re spending more than 50 of your time here, I would say that’s quite a big issue for your impact. So we’re gonna move on to the ones where there’s definitely more positive impact happening, and there’s a lot more potential in these ones. So Zone of excellence, which I think sounds good. Like, who doesn’t want to be excellent. Excellent. When you, like, read Gay Hendricks stuff here, this is stuff that you like. You are good at this. I think this is. This is, like, the territory of good. This is what people come to you for this stuff because you can do lots of it, and you’ve probably got quite a lot of things that you are good at. But the issue with this box is you might not enjoy all of it. Like, you’re definitely good at it. Some of it might be good because you’ve done it in your job for quite a long time. Some of it might be. You might be good because, you know, you’ve got particular. Particular talents in this area. But you. It’s not necessarily what you want to be known for.
Sarah Ellis: That’s. That’s.
Helen Tupper: I think, the difference.
Sarah Ellis: It’s not the spiky super strengths.
Helen Tupper: Yeah. People probably come to you for this, and they associate you with the abilities,
Sarah Ellis: like, to be able to do these things.
Helen Tupper: Excellent at. But you think, yeah, but this is not what I want you to know me for, which is where we get to genius, which we’re coming to. So I was looking at zone of excellence, and I was thinking, okay, what am I? What am I good at that people kind of come to me for? And I had got, like, editing was the wrong word. I put improving. I think a lot of people will come to me with something that is, like, 60% there and be like, okay, can you. Can you basically improve this? Because I’m quite fast. I think my zone of excellence I’m quite. I’m quite a fast thinker. And so people take that ability to. And they apply it to critiquing, reviewing, improving. But I don’t know if I was. I don’t like, I don’t want to be known. I don’t really want to be known as a fasting. I definitely don’t want to be known as an incremental improver. And I think people come to me having some of the. I’m like, no, I want to do. I want to do the creating. Like, I like the creating. I don’t want to just improve what you’ve created. It’s just as. I don’t find that as satisfying. I can. I can absolutely do it, but I just don’t find it as meaningful. So I had a. Kind of. A couple of things in that. But that was probably one of the things that I was like, that’s probably a trap for me because I’m good at it. People come to me for it, but it’s not really what I want to be known for in my work. What would you have in, like, the zone of excellence? You really got people come to you for it, but you don’t want to be known for it.
Sarah Ellis: Like branding and copy editing.
Helen Tupper: Okay.
Sarah Ellis: Like. Like writing, but in like a deck.
Helen Tupper: Yeah.
Sarah Ellis: Not writing as in books, because I, I do really enjoy that. But as in we’re creating a proposal, we’re writing something. And almost a bit like your editing one, actually. It’s like, oh, can you make this shorter?
Helen Tupper: It’s so funny. Because you’re so good at branding, but you don’t want to be known for it. No, that’s so. Because you are so good at it. That’s actually a really good example of
Sarah Ellis: I just want it to be good. I just want brand. I care about it. But you don’t want me to be the person. No. That’s so interesting because I spent my career until. Amazing. If not being that person. So there were always people better than me in the company.
Helen Tupper: You’re the best person in our business at it.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah. But I just think. But not compared to, you know, like, I’ve worked with people who are like absolute branding superstars. Yeah. And who probably taught me. Right. So that’s how I learned what I know about branding and how I know what to look for. But I think I know, like, if I. If they saw, they would be like, oh, yeah, you know, she’s like, pretty good. But they’re great at it.
Helen Tupper: Yeah.
Sarah Ellis: But it’s just sort of happened that probably in our company, I’ve ended up
Helen Tupper: being branding writing briefs. That’s another thing you’re very, very good at that you probably don’t want to be known for, but you are. Yeah. Your risk here, I think, is if you are the best person in the business or the team at something, but you don’t want to be known for that thing. That is probably. That’s probably your risk area in here. Okay, so let’s go on to the last one. This is your zone of genius.
Sarah Ellis: Excellent.
Helen Tupper: This is, like, uniquely you. You are good at. Well, actually, you’re great at this thing.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah.
Helen Tupper: It adds value. You enjoy doing it. You want to be known for it. Like, this is like the diamond in your day. Is that kind of stuff. What do you think is. What is the diamond in your day?
Sarah Ellis: Well, we both have this. I think we do it in different ways. So, you know, you can have the same thing. Right. And it can show up differently. But presenting.
Helen Tupper: Yeah.
Sarah Ellis: And it’s a good job. Cause that’s what we spend a lot of our time doing. But, you know, whether that is like standing on stages, delivering big virtual workshops, like running sprints, even, to an extent, like you’re presenting on a podcast. Right. Slightly. It’s much more conversational. But I do think I can be uniquely useful on a stage, talking about squiggly careers or learning like a lobster in our style. In the way that we draw on stage and never use slides, in the way that we engage people in a conversation. I think it makes both of us uniquely useful. Yeah.
Helen Tupper: Can I add some things to your diamonds?
Sarah Ellis: Are you gonna tell me my own one?
Helen Tupper: Yeah.
Sarah Ellis: Oh, perfect.
Helen Tupper: I tell you, I think you are amazing at coming up with ideas that other people that go beyond the obvious, you know, like I’m saying, some people have, like, incremental ideas, or we could make this better by. But you’re like, oh, no, I’ve gone to, like, a whole different. I’ve gone to a whole different area. Like, your ideas leapfrog into other. Other areas, which. Fantastic. Also think you’re a very good conceptual thinker. You know, like, you can hold all these different ideas you like, you’re like a. You know, like those chefs, those, you know, molecular gastronomy. You’re like that with, like, careers and ideas. You’re, like, mixing some Rand things and coming up with, like, something that people have never seen before. Like, you’re very, very good at whatever the equivalent of molecular gastronomy is for careers and ideas. Yeah.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah. I do think my. I’m Naturally curious again, I think there are people who are more curious than me, but I think my. The way that my brain works does mean that I can kind of connect that curiosity.
Helen Tupper: I’ve got a quirky brain.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I’m very grateful for it because it means that I can do what I do. But I definitely. I see people, particularly people who are closest to me, as in my partner, they are sort of slightly bemused by it. You can see people trying to almost make sense of me and what makes me good and struggling a little bit, being like, we sort of know that you are.
Helen Tupper: Oh, no.
Sarah Ellis: But we’re struggling, you know, like some people, you just. It’s so obvious what they’re incredible at and it’s so visible and it’s so easy to name and to put your finger on. Like, I’ve worked with some leaders where I’m like, it’s so clear to me why you are brilliant. Like, what you’re. I can still tell you today, having worked for them 10 years ago, 15 years ago, what their zone of genius was. Whereas I don’t think that’s quite the same. That’s the same with me. But I’ve. I’ve accepted that.
Helen Tupper: Well, I can communicate many things. Thank you.
Sarah Ellis: Talk to me about yours.
Helen Tupper: Well, I had presenting as well. That’s definitely one. Love doing it. Want to be known for it, Spend time doing it, think I’m good at it and can get even better at it. I also have building relationships.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, you’re very good.
Helen Tupper: I like. I love doing it.
Sarah Ellis: You’re a little magnet, aren’t you, people? I love it. I love it also. Anyone I try to build a relationship with is like, yeah, the. Even this week, I already know Helen, and I’m like, shocker. I’m like, I cannot build a relationship without them already knowing you.
Helen Tupper: That is not true. But I do.
Sarah Ellis: But it does happen to me quite a lot. So I’m like. Because you’re so good at building relationships.
Helen Tupper: I do like building relationships and I think I’m probably. I think you’re very good at building deep relationships. I think I’m very good at building a lot of relationships quickly.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah.
Helen Tupper: It’s probably a slight differentiator. So the idea for this is. So you’ve got these four different zones you want to. I would just spend a bit of time. You could do it in conversation with somebody like me and Sarah have. Or you could just do it on your own.
Sarah Ellis: Lovely team exercise.
Helen Tupper: Really, like, actually where I’m going with this, I Think this is a brilliant team exercise overall. So the first thing is you want to go through and you just write down what are all the things that I do today that are in each of these categories? And just like, you know, like presenting, just write them down a piece of paper. And then this is where it gets really, really insightful, because that’s kind of interesting. But where it becomes insightful is then you go and look at your diary. So I did this over the last month and I went through my diary every day in the diary and every activity that was in my diary, I put a tick in one of these zones.
Sarah Ellis: I did see lots of ticks on a bit of paper earlier.
Helen Tupper: Yeah.
Sarah Ellis: So it’s very intense.
Helen Tupper: If you’re listening, there are lots of ticks on a bit of paper. If you’re watching, I’ll kind of hold it up. So these are all the ticks, these
Sarah Ellis: are all the zones.
Helen Tupper: These are all my ticks. So I just went through every activity and I was like, okay, I was presenting, I was presenting again. I was doing business admin, I was doing some process stuff.
Sarah Ellis: Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.
Helen Tupper: And then at the end of it, I took a photo.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, this is so fun.
Helen Tupper: I can’t even say what’s on my phone. I took a photo, I uploaded the photo to ChatGPT and then I said, I asked it to analyse how much time was I spending in the different zones. Yeah, to take up basically count all of the ticks and tell me, like, how many ticks are in each zone and then what percentage of time am I spending in each of them? And this was so helpful. This, this was a way quicker way of getting to insight than I could have. You know, I would have to.
Sarah Ellis: We’ve got all the count the ticks or like, whatever.
Helen Tupper: It was so good and it said like approximate counts. And it was able to also read my writing, which is. Which is impressive. And then it had your spending. It said, I’ve got 41% of my time in my zone of genius and I’ve got 32% of time in my zone of excellence, which means that I’m spending over 70% of time on things that I’m good and greater, so it’s
Sarah Ellis: got to be pretty good, right?
Helen Tupper: Oh, ye. Yeah. I mean, that is not reflective of other types of jobs.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, same for me.
Helen Tupper: Sarah and I have recently recorded the bullshit Jobs episode, which is an example
Sarah Ellis: for the opposite to this conversation, which
Helen Tupper: is an example when that was not true. And I’m spending. This is quite interesting. I’m spending 22%. It says that there’s still a meaningful chunk of your time that you’re spending in incompetence. 22% of my time. And it’s likely to be admin and low value Dragon. And so it did make me.
Sarah Ellis: I think you do do that.
Helen Tupper: Yeah.
Sarah Ellis: Low value drag, like, I think I see. And I’m always like, oh, it’s such a waste. Yeah, I like it. And some of it is because you. You have to at the moment.
Helen Tupper: Yeah.
Sarah Ellis: Because, you know, small company, sometimes you have to fill in for, you know, people not being around. But I do think there are also other things where even when that person comes back from maternity leave, which you’re. You’re very kindly covering for some of those things at the moment, I still sometimes hear you. You’ll, like, tell me in passing, yeah, oh, I’m doing this. And I’ll think, why is Helen doing that? You know, like, if. Even if you just think about. And you didn’t talk loads about your Zone genius, but I’m like, right, Helen creates clarity. Like, no one I’ve ever met, you know, like. And I’m including all those brilliant leaders that I’ve worked with and for. But I’m like, you do have this ability to create clarity. And I think that’s such. I think that’s so valuable. I think that’s valuable for the people who learn with us. I think that’s valuable for our team. I think that’s valuable for, like, how we grow. And I go, oh, but if I could take that 20% or 22%, imagine if you applied even half of that 22% to creating more clarity, like, you know, the impact that that could have, also the enjoyment from your perspective.
Helen Tupper: But I think, you know, because you start to put in data and we talk about this and then like a lobster, data for your development.
Sarah Ellis: This is data for your.
Helen Tupper: And because we’ve got ticks and numbers and percentages, and so you start going, okay, well, what would it take for me to halve that?
Sarah Ellis: And that gives me 10% to 11%,
Helen Tupper: and I’ll put that 10%. And then I could talk to you about, well, what do we want to put that 10% on? And so this is what I’m saying about. I think this becomes a really useful conversation. I want to have this with the team. I’m not going to force the team to do it, but if any of our team are listening and watching and they want to do the Zone of Genius exercise with me, I think this is a really good way of taking people’s work, turning it into data for their development and doing something that’s going to make a positive difference.
Sarah Ellis: It’s a lovely link with strengths. Right. You know, back to one of the original Squiggly Career five skills. I think when you. The more you think about strengths, the more I’m always like, that’s how people enjoy their jobs, you know, day to day. It’s where you get satisfaction from, is putting your strengths into action. And I think typically, I believe in sort of the flow insight of, you know, stretching your strengths. It’s like when you’ve got a bit of challenge so there’s no point you creating clarity just in the ways that you’ve done it before. It’s when you have to create clarity on something that’s particularly complex, where there’s lots of different factors. I’m like, that’s where Helen will a add a lot of value, like learn and grow herself and probably also enjoy that. She’ll feel really satisfied at the end of her working day if she’s spending that time on business admin.
Helen Tupper: It’s passive meetings that actually only gone.
Sarah Ellis: But you need to come to some passive meetings. Because I only got tick. Yeah. I have to say, you don’t do many. I feel like, you know, like a. Not to go. Go to those also. We don’t do many.
Helen Tupper: No, no.
Sarah Ellis: I can’t think of many meetings. No.
Helen Tupper: Yeah.
Sarah Ellis: But I just every so often I’d like to see you in one because it is really funny just to bring
Helen Tupper: a bit of joy, bit of joy to your day.
Sarah Ellis: We might have one. Well, no, maybe not.
Helen Tupper: Oh, don’t. I’m not going to look forward to it.
Sarah Ellis: I was like, oh, I think we might have one on Monday. But I was like, no, actually, no, you will have. You will have something to say that meeting.
Helen Tupper: So what we will do, because I do think that there is a bit of a process here. I think you, you know, there’s like steps to this. I think you have to kind of go through the zones and write down the work and then I think you have to look at your diary, collect your tips.
Sarah Ellis: Could you question as you were describing. Because I was like, if anyone could build this, probably be hella. And I was like, could you. Could it do it for you? You know, the tick thing that you had to do? Because I was like, well, that sounds a bit annoying, having to go back over my diary for a month and tick stuff. Could you build an agent to do it as you go, you know, if you were good enough at. You know, now people are really into colour coding their diaries.
Helen Tupper: Yeah.
Sarah Ellis: I might start trying a bit more of, like. I’ve heard so many people say it, you know, so if you. And most of the stuff that we do is in our diary, because it just is. And even time blocking for doing work tends to be in our diaries. I was like, could you do it live? So that your agent was tracking as you go and giving you live data at the end of every month so that you didn’t have to do the ticks. It was just there. Do you think that would work?
Helen Tupper: You could. If you colour coded your meetings, then
Sarah Ellis: it would use that to be like.
Helen Tupper: With the. Be like. Can you imagine if I had an internal meeting? I was like, passive meetings are pink. I don’t know if you always want other people to see. I don’t know. You maybe could.
Sarah Ellis: There must be a way, though, of getting tickets.
Helen Tupper: I didn’t mind doing the tics.
Sarah Ellis: I actually quite liked.
Helen Tupper: And then I liked. I don’t know, I quite liked the exercise and then I quite Looking at my tics. But that’s just. That’s just me. I did this on the train this morning and I found it quite enjoyable. The man next to me with my giant post, my train’s quite busy. And I was there, like, with my Post-It notes ticking away. He must have been like, what is this?
Sarah Ellis: I do always quite like looking. Like we both get the train into London and you know, when people are working, you know, having like a sneaky glance, like, what people are working on. Which is also why you should never do it. Never do anything confidential on the train. Because basically I’m always. I’m always like, oh, you know, and it’s always. It’s always slides. Everyone’s always doing PowerPoint slides. And I always feel sorry for that.
Helen Tupper: I’m often. Sometimes on the train, I have to. My train’s so crammed in the morning and I’m like. Because we live draw. And I’m always kind of preparing for things and sometimes I sit on the floor and do it and I’m live drawing and I think people must just think, well, I just.
Sarah Ellis: People always look at me if I’m drawing, you know, because sometimes I’ll be preparing something and you just see people, like, looking across and then being like, ooh. Really wanting to kind of ask, you know, because everyone always wants to know what app we’re using.
Helen Tupper: Paper by Wetransfer.
Sarah Ellis: Just in case the amount of times, like after probably like the Post-It note link. We also do the paper link a lot. And also I don’t ever see anyone else doing that. I’m always like, what do you know? I am seeing more of on commutes, which makes me really happy. I think the book is making a comeback.
Helen Tupper: I think the book is making a comeback too.
Sarah Ellis: Yes. I agree. You know, when you look at. I like looking around a train.
Helen Tupper: Yeah.
Sarah Ellis: And I see a lot more people being like, no, I’m gonna put the phone away, I’m gonna book out. I saw. I think it was. We both know Nikki. Nikki Kemp. I saw. I think she must have done it in the new year where she was like, that’s one of her New Year’s resolutions. Was like almost, you know, like habit stacking.
Helen Tupper: Yeah.
Sarah Ellis: You get on a train, you take a book out. And I find that I have started to do that a bit more. You know, like, always have a book in your bag.
Helen Tupper: Yeah.
Sarah Ellis: Because sometimes it just makes you. Sometimes I want to have my phone. Cause I’m listening to a podcast or I like to out the window for a bit.
Helen Tupper: It’s probably a nice social media bit of content in that, which you wouldn’t like because it’s not in your zone of genius. But like, what does that have to do with like, have you got in your bag? It’s probably quite a nice way of like somebody like.
Sarah Ellis: I can imagine some content creators doing that, you know, like going down a train.
Helen Tupper: It should be you.
Sarah Ellis: I mean, obviously not me. Not actually me having to do this. But being like, is that in your zone of genius? That feels like more like Simon Squibb thing, you know, someone gets off the train, open your bag. Yeah, well, books in your bag.
Helen Tupper: I mean, someone take that idea. I would like that content.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it would actually. I would always be interested because I want book recommendations. I just don’t have to ask.
Helen Tupper: I also quite like looking at people’s bags. Yeah. This is double win. Anyway, we’ll put it.
Sarah Ellis: I think this is useful.
Helen Tupper: Good. Me too. I really liked it. So we’re going to put that process on the podsheet so that you can work your way through it. Podsheets are always on our website. So amazingif.com there’s a podcast like page that you can navigate to and then you’ll find it there. And if you ever can’t find anything, just email us helenand sarah@squigglycareers.com
Sarah Ellis: but that’s everything for this week. Thank you so much for listening. Back with you again soon. Bye for now.