00:00:00: Introduction
00:00:54: The hatred of small talk
00:07:10: The quick connection approach
00:09:24: Different small talk practices…
00:10:26: … 1: small-talk starters
00:20:55: … 2: half listening vs whole listening
00:27:12: … 3: when to stop the small talk
00:35:15: Final thoughts
Helen Tupper: Hi, I’m Helen.
Sarah Ellis: And I’m Sarah.
Helen Tupper: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, a weekly show where we talk about the ins, outs, ups and downs of work to give you a bit of insight, support, advice and some tools to help you feel a little bit more confident and in control of your career. And as well as the episode, which Sarah will tell you what we’re going to be talking about today in a moment, we also create lots of extra things to help you with your development. So, you can download our PodSheet which is a one-page summary of what we’re going to talk about today, and you can also get a swipable summary. All those resources are either on our LinkedIn page which is @amazingif, so just head there, or on our website, which is amazingif.com.
Sarah Ellis: So, interesting topic, which I think we’re going to have a bit of fun with today, how to make small talk. And in workshops, I often ask people a bit about networking, which we define as people helping people. But before I share that definition, I say, “How do you feel about networking?” And often, unprompted, people will tell me about their hatred of small talk. And people are quite visceral in their reaction to just the dread, the anxiety. And actually, when you talk to people about what is it about networking that gets in your way, I feel like small talk is almost the biggest barrier, like that’s the hurdle that people can’t get past, so they’re like, “Well, I’m never going to network because I hate small talking, I hate any small talk”.
Helen Tupper: I actually really like small talking, I find it fun, because my approach to it is I’m always thinking I never know who I’m going to meet or what we’re going to talk about. But as somebody who enjoys it and just leaps into it, I suppose, I do sometimes see the person I’m speaking to being far more resistant. I definitely do sometimes, because I just start a chat with anybody, any event, anywhere. Big events, I feel a bit more awkward. That’s probably the only one where I take a deep breath before I do it. But almost in every other situation, like start of a Zoom, in a meeting room, that kind of thing, I’m fine with that stuff. But I do sometimes see the person on the other end of my small talk might be starting in a different place from me. Like, you can see just a little bit of like that deer in the headlights phrase kind of phrase, just a bit like that feeling. Where are you on it on a scale of small talk is amazing to small talk is the most awkward thing that I could possibly do in my day, where would you be?
Sarah Ellis: Well, I think as we will talk about, I think I’m in a very different place now to where I would have been pre-Amazing If, because it is unavoidable in the work that we do. I think I’ve had an awful lot of practice now, which has made me find a way of having those small-talk conversations that works for me. And actually, when you and I have gone through it today and come up with our ideas, we both actually came up with quite different things, I think probably because of my more introverted personality, your more extroverted, already just listening to you, I’m like, “Well, you do that, you’ve got that dream lens on these conversations”, which is you’re like, “Great. I just approach all these conversations with curiosity”. And you’re like, “Well, what can I learn and who am I going to meet?” which I think in theory is of course the right way to do it, but in practice, if that’s not you, I don’t think telling yourself is going to help that much.
Helen Tupper: Oh, I agree.
Sarah Ellis: I don’t think just going, “Oh, I’m just going to be more curious”, you’re like, no, no, I think you have to always do a bit of a rethink about what this looks like for you so that you can take the fear and the anxiety and the dread away. And the reason we want to talk about it today is when we started listing all the moments when small talk happened, you realise I think it’s more frequent than maybe most of us imagine at first glance. Because what do we all think about when it comes to small talk? Events, events where you don’t know people. And that’s true. That’s often an almost spiky moment of small talk. You’re like, “Crikey, there’s going to be a lot of it”. But any meeting someone for the first time, so that could be internally as well, so you’re meeting someone from a different team, from a different department; start of most conversations, there’s often at least a bit of small talk; when you’re maybe doing things like team meetings, there’s usually a bit of small talk.
Helen and I were saying, “Filler time”. So particularly, I think, if you’re doing virtual meetings, actually even in meetings where you’re all in a room, there’s always that couple of minutes between getting everybody there and basically before you start the real purpose of what you’re there to do, there’s always that bit of small talk. There is the moving between context small talk. So, we were saying if you mainly work virtually and then actually you’re doing something in a room together, then actually I feel like you probably have a different small-talk conversation then, or you’re on an away day where maybe you’re like, “Oh, it feels like I should make some small talk because I’m on an away day”. And then we got to the small talk that neither Helen nor I like. So, I was like, “Crikey, if Helen doesn’t even like this, it must be bad”, the lift small talk!
Helen Tupper: Awful!
Sarah Ellis: So, we were both saying, we both worked in companies with lots of floors. I mean, maybe this is a really specific thing, but where you do see people that you either half know or know a bit in a lift, and you’re like, “I’ve got two floors, what do I do?”
Helen Tupper: I know, because I think it’s the pressure of you get in and you’re like, “Well, I’ve got three floors, but maybe you get on the first floor, so I can’t start a conversation that you’re like –“, see, so I’m just not going to have it. And then, where do you look? So, do you just, “Nice coffee!” It’s awful, awful!
Sarah Ellis: Well also I, I had ones that had mirrors, so you could see, you could see everyone’s face and I would just be like, “Look at the floor”.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, I was just thinking like, “Look at your shoes!”
Sarah Ellis: Though honestly, I was saying that I couldn’t do this in one of the companies I worked in, because there were too many floors, there were 31 floors; but where there was only 8 floors, my answer to this was, “Take the stairs”, honestly. I reckon sometimes I was just like, it’s as easy to walk up two flights of stairs; that is easier than making small talk with someone I half know, where I don’t know if I’ve got one stop or two before I have to get out, and you’re just like, “Oh, no”.
Helen Tupper: No, I agree, I don’t love the lift.
Sarah Ellis: That, I would dread. So, I suppose the point we’re trying to make is there are lots of moments of small talk, and maybe if we can think about it in a different way, it can actually be a chance to connect. So, we were trying to almost forensically look at small talk and go, “Well, what is it that makes small talk small talk? And we were like, “It’s quick”. So, we’re not talking about big, long conversations here. We’re like, quick conversations that tend to be the start of something, so it’s the first thing that you’re talking about, which often is, I think, why it’s hard because the pressure, it’s like the first thing I say, and it’s usually pre-empting something else. So, it’s never the core content of a conversation. It’s like, it’s quick, it’s the first thing you do, you’re getting started and you’re pre-empting.
So, we were trying to do a bit of a squiggly swap, and you’ll have to let us know if you come up with something better. But we were thinking, what would a reframe be that might help you approach these conversations with a different lens, with a different mindset? And we came up with this idea of quick connection. So, this is a moment of quick connection. And as part of that, I think you also have to let go of the expectation that you will connect with everyone. Basically, your aim is you’re like, “Oh, I’m just going to see if I can make a quick connection with someone”. Sometimes people don’t want to be connected with, sometimes you might just not. I feel like sometimes chemistry in those moments just doesn’t click. And that doesn’t mean that someone doesn’t like you or that you’re not good at your job, it’s a quick connection and then you move on. And I think for lots of people, probably people a bit like me, actually just going, look — it’s a bit like I think some people have to let go of networking as a word, because I think sometimes that just gets in the way. If this idea of networking and small talk, you’re like, “It just feels so hard and so far away from who I am and how I am”, I would maybe start with, people helping people and quick connections. I do think that helps sometimes with just how we then take action, like give ourselves a bit of impetus to do something different.
Helen Tupper: And we did talk about as well this idea of connections, the difference between small C and big C connection. So, making a quick connection through small talk does not mean they become an actual connection, as in suddenly they’re my best friend or suddenly that I’m having another meeting with them or I’m on LinkedIn. It’s more the sense of I’ve found, like Sarah mentioned the word ‘chemistry’, there’s a moment of chemistry in this conversation where we have connected, and we’ll talk about ways you might find that connection; but it’s just a moment in time where we just clicked at the start of a conversation. So, it isn’t like a quick connection that results in us being LinkedIn best buddies, it’s not that kind of a connection, it’s just this moment at the start of a conversation where we’ve had that quick click, that moment of interaction that has just felt engaging, it’s felt interesting.
Sarah Ellis: So, as Helen and I were saying, we do loads of this every week, I would say more than average, just because of the sorts of work we do. We work with loads of different companies, we’re meeting new people all the time. I reckon most days I’m now meeting someone that I’ve not met before. So, later today, I’m doing a podcast interview ready for something special that we’re doing in March. And again, I’ll be meeting those two people for the first time. So, whether it’s podcasts or workshops or speaking, we just have a lot of that in our weeks. And so, what we’ve tried to do now is list what’s helped us do it well and also what hasn’t. And actually, as we’ve discovered as we went through, yes, there were some principles that we both agreed on, but actually our practices, what you would see if you were a fly on a wall in our weeks, would be different. And what I hope that makes the point to everybody listening is going, well, there’s not one way of doing this, but whether you’re more introverted or more extroverted, there is a way for everyone. So, we’re going to try and do some contrasting options.
So, the first area is what we’re calling small-talk starters, so the first thing you’re going to say. And Helen and I both approach this in this slightly different way. So, I am much more likely to start with what we’re calling a low-commitment question, so this idea of being interested and worry a bit less about being interesting. I feel like that takes the pressure off me a bit. And I think I find questions are just a good way to be intrigued, to show somebody also that I’m interested. And actually, once I’ve got a response, one of the things I think I am quite good at is then connecting the connection dots. Once someone has given something to me, I can then start to be like, “Oh, okay, so that’s interesting. They’re obviously into this, or they’re into that”. And then I can work out, what does that mean for me.
So, those low-commitment questions, which I think change depending on your context, so you’re meeting someone for the first time or are they people you already know, but a few examples, I might just ask something like, “Oh, what have you been up to since I last saw you?” or, “What’s new since last week?” That’s quite a nice one with the team I think. If it was an event, I would pretty much always go with, “Oh, who are you looking forward to hearing from today?” or, “Who are you looking forward to seeing today?” something to do with the agenda. It’s not going to blow our minds, the response to that. But if somebody then picks out a topic or a person, then you go, “Oh, I wonder, why is that particularly interesting for them?” And it’ll probably get them talking a little bit about maybe the work that they do. And again, I can just make a bit of a quick connection. Or even as simple as, “How’s your week going?”
One watch-out with that, I was watching an interesting Harvard Business Review video on small talk, is you know when sometimes people just go, “I’m fine”, and it feels like, “Oh, okay, back to me then, back to me for the next question. I was hoping for a bit more than that!” No, I do think when I ask people that, it is quite rare that people just go, “I’m fine”. Usually, you do get a bit more. And actually, that’s often quite helpful, because you get a feel for, is someone coming to this conversation with stress or they’re so overwhelmed, or actually they’re feeling really good because something amazing’s just happened. So, how’s their week going, I think, is a good question and I do ask it. If someone does just say, “I’m fine”, I will then often follow up with going, “Oh, what’s been particularly good about the week so far?” I try and do something a bit more pointy, and something positive as well. I would never say to someone, “Well, what’s your biggest challenge right now?” because that doesn’t feel like a quick connection.
The one other myth that I’m not sure is true, so I was saying to Helen about this, if you read a bit of the research around small talk, there’s this phrase that everybody goes on about. And I remember there being a real moment where I heard this a bit in training sessions, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard it in real life, you know, one of those things where you’re like, “Does this actually translate?” And maybe if you’re listening and you’re like, “Oh, no, it totally works for me”, you’ll have to let us know. And I’m going to call this the ‘tell me more’ myth. So, what lots of the arguments are, is that when people talk to you, if they’re quite short in their response, all you need to do is just go back and go, “Tell me more”. I’m like, “Who does that?” I mean, (a) it feels a bit like I’m putting that person on the spot; (b) secondly, I just think it’s a slightly weird phrase.
Helen Tupper: Well, they sound like they’re being interviewed, don’t they? It’s gone from this informal quick connection to like an interview. I’m like, “Why, why am I telling you more?”
Sarah Ellis: Yeah. It just, it actually doesn’t feel — I can’t ever imagine saying that out loud. I get the sentiment of like, you’re trying to show you’re interested and you’re trying to maybe dig a bit deeper. But really, in a small-talk conversation, I think you are making a quick connection. And as much as I would always probably start with a question, I think one of the things that I have to watch out for, for myself, is you don’t want to ask someone too many questions because like you say, otherwise it ends up feeling a bit too much like I’m putting a lot of pressure on that person. So, I think you have got to give a bit as well.
Helen Tupper: I think it’s a bit lazy, you know, “Tell me more”, because if I said, “Oh, how are things going this week?” and you were like, “Yeah, it’s okay”, and I went, “Tell me more”, what I should say is like, I don’t know, I would just ask probably a different, more specific question and say like, “Have you just come straight here or are you coming from somewhere else?” I’d probably change my question to see if I could unlock anything else. I do think though, you do need to read the room a little bit with how somebody responds, because if they go, “Oh, it’s fine”, that might be just because your question hasn’t unlocked the connection that small talk can provide, or it might be because they’re just not in the mood to talk, and in which case, move on. We’re not trying to force a conversation with someone who doesn’t want to talk to you, we’re just trying to create a quick connection. But if they’re just not in that mode at that particular time, then you don’t want to make it awkward for somebody. Just because you’re looking for connection, it doesn’t mean that they need it at that moment.
Sarah Ellis: I always think with these questions, you just want to make them as easy as possible for people. That’s often why I will, and maybe this is just me, but I think my questions do tend to be quite in-the-moment work-related. And maybe that’s because of what we do, because we have a lot of filler moments. We’re in this couple of minutes before an event starts, or you’re about to run a workshop, or just before you’re about to start the podcast recording. So, when I interview these two people later today, I can’t just start the podcast recording because I’ve never met them before. So, I’ve obviously got to — you’ve got to talk to people first. But I think often, like today, I’ll probably say to them, “Oh, what other podcasts have you done?” Or actually, what I will say is, I noticed that they know someone we know, Simon Ong. I will definitely just say that, “Oh, I spotted you know Simon. I didn’t realise. It looked like you had a really good catch up”, just to go, “Let’s make a quick connection”. And then, that feels very relevant, it feels very in the moment.
If it’s an event, I’ll always say to somebody who’s organising it, “Oh, how’s the event going so far?” and they’ll just give you like, “Oh, yeah, actually so far it’s going pretty well”, and they can tell you some good stuff. and you’re like, “Oh, that sounds brilliant”. I don’t think you always have to ask people stuff that’s personal, because I think sometimes people don’t always want to share that stuff. And so, I think I’m often more in the territory of going, ask about what’s happening right now or ask about work stuff. And then you end up maybe sometimes in more outside-of-work territory. But yeah I would probably be more likely to ask like, “What’s happened at work in the last week?” rather than just going, “What’s happened in your life in the last week?”
Helen Tupper: I think I probably would stray into personal territory.
Sarah Ellis: That’s more you.
Helen Tupper: It’s just more me to be like, “Has anyone don’t think fun in the last 24 hours?” It’s just more my style to do that question.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, where I don’t think I do.
Helen Tupper: But in terms of the difference between Sarah and me, as well as where the question comes from, like a personal or a professional one, also we talked about Sarah might lead with a question, so those low-commitment questions. I often lead with what we’re calling a ‘give to get started’. So, I will share something quick, like, “Oh, I did this this morning”. We had PodPlus this morning and there’s like, I don’t know, a couple of hundred people that join and they join at different times. So often, before I start PodPlus, which is our discussion about our podcast with that community, I might just have a little bit of like, I always think about it as sort of catch-up time or just like, well, it’s small-talk time.
Sarah Ellis: Do you know what’s so funny?
Helen Tupper: What?
Sarah Ellis: Obviously, I do PodPlus as well, but we don’t do it together very often. I am trying to think if I have — I don’t think I’ve ever done anything.
Helen Tupper: That’s hilarious.
Sarah Ellis: I just think I’d go into the content. I’m just like, “Right, so we’re here to talk about this”, and just get started.
Helen Tupper: I kind of go, “Hi, everybody”, and I go, “Before we get started, I know I look a little bit brown, it’s fake tan, and that’s because I’m going on holiday tomorrow”. And I’m like, “Has anyone got any recommendations? Before we start, book recommendations, send them my way”. But I am definitely a bit more of a random way into a conversation definitely, which again isn’t always comfortable for everybody. But if small talk is quick connection, it is one way that feels authentic to me to create quick connection. So, I will share a random thing like, “Last night, I did this”, or whatever, I really don’t know what it is, but I just share a random thing that’s happened in the last 24 hours or so, so it’s very of the moment. And then, I will often be like, “Oh, are you going on holiday in the next couple of weeks?” or, “Have you got a book recommendation?” or, “Oh my gosh, my technology just failed in the last meeting. Don’t you just hate it when that happens?” And then I just often just share that little nugget as a way of kind of, I guess it’s like a breaking-the-ice thing. But then I’ll often follow it with a question, but I use my context first.
Sarah Ellis: I think what is good about your approach is that you are sharing first, so you’re encouraging other people to do it in return. It’s also, because I’ve obviously seen you do this, and again, I look at it and go, well, I can’t do that. We were having the debate about, like, would you ask about the weather? And I was like, “Absolutely not”. I was like, with my slightly more critical brain, I think it’s fair to say, I was like, “No, I don’t want to know what everyone’s weather is and I don’t want to talk about my weather”, I’m like, “It’s boring”. So, it’s just not in my skillset to ask that question.
Helen Tupper: I love you!
Sarah Ellis: But then I’ve seen Helen do it, and I think why it works for Helen is because she’s fun and she’s energetic, and people kind of go with that.
Helen Tupper: I’ll be like, “Everybody, we’ve got two minutes. Rather than talk for ages about the weather, give me the weather in an emoji”. That works, because we will do sessions with a lot of people in them. And so very quickly, I’ll be like, “My emoji would be a rainy umbrella or a pair of wellies”, or whatever I could find. And then, actually, small talk in that way is as simple as an emoji. It’s that quick moment of connection.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that’s nice. I can imagine doing that though. I can imagine doing the emoji.
Helen Tupper: There you go, a weather emoji, one for you for the next one!
Sarah Ellis: And so, I think some of this obviously comes naturally. I think it’s pretty hard to predetermine exactly what you’re going to say at the beginning of small talk, but I do think you can identify an approach that works for you. So, I do think Helen is probably more likely to share something about herself, I’m more likely to ask a question. I think make it low pressure, make it easy.
Number two, when you are in this small talk or what are we reframing it as?
Helen Tupper: Quick connection.
Sarah Ellis: Quick connection conversations — is just to ask yourself whether you are half listening or whole listening. So, this is definitely something I recognise, is that when you are under pressure, you’re more likely to half listen. And you’re half listening because you are either anxious and/or making judgments, trying to find connections, panicking about what you’re going to say next, and often for me, realising you’ve already forgotten someone’s name. And then, I’m beating myself up, often because I am a bit nervous and then I’ve not listened and I’m like, “Oh, for god’s sake, Sarah”, and now I’ve not listened to anything, or I’ve listened to half of what they’ve said.
One of the things that has really helped me is I find that actually if I just go, “Well, my job here is to just wholly listen, like, what is somebody telling me?” And don’t worry about what you’re going to ask next, or whether you can connect to that person, or anything like that. Your only job here is just to listen, just be interested. Because then, you know that thing about being present, actually then it obviously makes it easier to then make the connection, because then you hear the moments of, I don’t know, excitement in what someone’s sharing, or you maybe see and spot some of the more subtle signals that someone might be giving you. Like, maybe they’re actually really nervous about being at an event, and they actually say, “Actually, I’ve never been to something like this before”. And you might have missed that if you’re not listening properly. But if someone said that to me, I would be thinking, “Oh, okay, so maybe this might feel quite hard, or maybe they don’t know anyone. And maybe actually I feel okay here, maybe I have been to these things a few times, I can be quite helpful”. And so, I think if you listen properly, you’re more likely to also hear the things that someone isn’t saying out loud, and you’re more able to spot those quick connections.
Again, I don’t this is a long thing, I think this is in a minute, in two minutes, and just see where somebody goes in what they’re saying to you.
Helen Tupper: I was just thinking about whether I half listen or whole listen. I think my intent is always to whole listen to somebody and you’re not doing it for very long. But I think the thing that sometimes leads to me half listening is what’s happening around me. So, for example, there was an event I was at this week, a typical moment, it was in the queue for coffee, always a small-talk situation, the queue for coffee.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that’s another good one.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, it is, there’s a queue for coffee, and so we’re making a bit of small talk. And then we started having a little chat. I think it was quite an out-of-work thing we were talking about. But actually, I was struggling to listen because we ended up stopping at the coffee. So, we’d been in the queue and then we started talking and then we’d stopped at the coffee. And then, there were people around us, like trying to get to the milk or whatever. And I was trying to be polite to these people and I felt like I wasn’t concentrating. And so, I just said, “Oh, should we just move over here a minute?” And I wasn’t trying to cage them into a conversation, but I didn’t feel like I could listen to what someone was trying to say, because there were lots of people around me. So, I do think sometimes, what’s going on around this interaction can sometimes affect my ability to listen. And so, I will say, “Should we just move here for a minute?” or, “Should we just get away from this bit?” if I’m having that conversation, because otherwise I don’t really feel like I’m fully I’m in it, and actually they’re distracted as well.
Sarah Ellis: And so, I mean one way you can easily test yourself on this is, the next time where you’re like, “Oh, that was a quick connection moment”, ask yourself a day later, what can you remember? Because usually, if you’re whole listening, you can remember a good percentage, let’s say aim for 75%, because actually it’s very hard to remember all of it, but you might remember 75% of that conversation. So, actually, I was trying this with Helen when we were preparing for the podcast, with somebody I met this week. And I could remember what he told me about his team, a bit about what might be useful for them, and some things — we were just having a quick connection. This was in one of those moments, it was before a workshop was starting, he was introducing me. And so, you are having that slightly awkward like, “Oh, hi, you’re about to introduce me, but you’ve never met me”. So, that’s always quite a weird moment. And then you do have to make some small talk.
Then, he was talking to me a bit about his team and what they were doing. And so, it was a good reminder of like, well, actually, because I really listened in that moment, I can still remember. And one of the techniques you can use in a conversation, I don’t think I use it loads for small talk, see if you do, Helen, people say often about, if you’ve really listened, you can then paraphrase. So, not parroting, you’re not just parroting back, but you can almost summarise, I guess, the key things. But to me, that felt a bit formal for me to have a quick connection moment.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, I don’t do that. No, I don’t do that at all. And also, because I’m trying to, I don’t know, I’m trying to learn quite quickly and get lots of new information. No, I don’t do that. I think what you have suggested, reflecting on small-talk conversations, is actually very useful. So, I think about some of the small-talk conversations I’ve had this week, there are some where I can definitely recall the detail of what was said, and there are some where I know we had some small talk and I probably can’t remember the detail, and I think it’s useful to think about what was the difference, and just without naming the conversations in case anyone’s listening now, but I do remember one, we were away from everybody else, so it was a lot easier for me to listen, based on what I’ve just said. And then, the small talk was particularly interesting because of something this person was doing, but it was just me and this person chatting slightly distant to everyone else.
The other one, where I definitely had small talk, but I actually can’t remember a lot of what was said, was I think I was too conscious of what was coming next. So, the conversation that we needed to have, I was a bit like, “I need to make sure this is good”, that was in my head. So, I don’t think I was as present in the small talk, because I was mentally on to what is coming next. And so, it’s just interesting, I think, to just reflect on. You should be able to remember, like if you are fully listening, particularly within a week, you should be able to remember a good chunk of what was said if you were really listening to a conversation and it’s within the week of you having had it.
Sarah Ellis: So then, final part, part three, if you want to think of it like that, is when to stop the small talk. Hooray! Obviously, I’m joking. It’s quick connections, so it’s all good. But I was thinking, I would love somebody to do this as an experiment, maybe we could do it as an experiment; you know if you timed the average length of small talk, what would it be? So, we’re talking less than five minutes, I would imagine, most of the time.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, I think so, I think, like, two to three minutes, that kind of length.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, two to three minutes. I think some of ours might be slightly longer, because sometimes we have to turn up, let’s say, ten minutes or quarter of an hour before a workshop, and then sometimes you do have I think actually a slightly longer period.
Helen Tupper: I feel awkward when it goes on too long. You know when sometimes I’m like, “I’ve run out of the good stuff! Bring out the weather emoji!”
Sarah Ellis: So, I think for most people, it’s probably less than five minutes, but there might be some situations where it might be repeated five minutes. So, let’s say you’re on a team away day, you might have lots of five-minute snippets of small talk, right, with different people throughout the day. If it’s an event, you might be doing it multiple times, but each small-talk segment is usually pretty short. And so, then there’s two choices. You’re either, depending on your situation, segueing from that small talk, that quick-connection moment, into a focused conversation, or you’re stopping it and moving on. And so, I think segueing is often just about what you signal and say out loud. So, Helen and I were both saying, “What do you say?” because we have to do this all the time. I will often use the word, “So, it feels like a good moment for us to get started”. We literally both said that we say the word ‘started’ or ‘start’, which does actually imply that the quick connection or the small talk doesn’t count.
Helen Tupper: Yes, I know!
Sarah Ellis: And I was like, “Oh, I don’t know how I feel about that”, because obviously, that can actually be really important when it’s done well, I think. But I still think it is okay to just be like, “Let’s get started”. Or, I also sometimes ask a different question. You know when there’s a bit of a natural break, let’s say we were meeting a new company we might work with, I will then wait for them to finish whichever bit they’re on and then say, “Oh, so what’s most useful for us to talk about first today?” or, “What’s most useful for us to focus on together now?” So, you’re very clearly going, “It’s a segue, it’s a bridge into what we need to do”.
Actually, I did that this morning. I was having some small-talk chat with two people I’d not met before. It was really interesting because they live in Australia and I was like, “Oh, that’s interesting to me”. And we were having a bit of chat about, she was saying she’d taken her three kids on a really long plane journey and I was like, “Oh, that’s brave”. So, you’re just having that chat. I’ve had people talk a bit about their lives, which is really nice. And then I was like, it felt like when there’s just that natural pause or silence, I think that it can be tempting to keep the small talk going, but I think that is your cue. That is your cue to go, okay, now’s the moment to segue, because it’s quick and that’s absolutely fine. So, I think that’s one way to do, is just know if you’re running meetings, if you’re facilitating meetings, what’s your go-to to make that move into whatever it is you need to talk about?
Helen Tupper: Then the alternative one, and I guess this is probably more, it could be like a meeting or an event, but it’s that situation where you’ve had a small-talk moment with somebody and then you want to move on. And it’s not into the conversation, it’s the end, it’s not going to continue any more than that. Maybe you’re going to, because you need to talk to somebody else, or maybe you’ve got something else to do based on what your plan is that day. So, you do need to end the conversation. And we were saying in that moment, we think it is the best thing to do is have a positive end. So, “Oh, it’s been lovely talking. Oh, it’s great to hear that. Oh, you’ve really made my morning”, or any positive end, but you don’t want it to feel like, “Bye”, and just go. That’s just going to feel really weird. So, conclude positively, and I think you just do that in the way that feels authentic to you, but just I always think, how do I want people to feel after having spoken to me? And I always want people to feel positive and energised as a result of having interacted with me in some way.
So, end positive in the way that feels right for you and perhaps explain where you’re going to. So, if I was just talking to Sarah about some small talk and I was like, “All right, nice to talk to you”, and I just left, even though I ended positively, Sarah might still be thinking, “Well, that was a bit weird. Does she not like me?” and you don’t want to create those kinds of feelings. So, I will often say, “I’m just going to grab a coffee before the meeting starts”, or, “Oh, it’s been lovely talking, thank you so much. I’m just meeting a colleague over on the other side of the room. So, I’m just going to head off and find her, because I promised I’ll go see her later”, or whatever it is, but I will probably explain where I am going to so it doesn’t feel like I’ve just started a conversation then abandoned it. I don’t think you ever want anyone to feel abandoned after small talk, that’s not a nice end to that interaction.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I don’t think if I was at an event, I would never leave someone stranded.
Helen Tupper: Oh, yeah, on their own. I have actually done that. Not stranded, that sounds horrible.
Sarah Ellis: Oh, you’re mean.
Helen Tupper: No, but just because sometimes, no, do you know what it is? God, this does sound really mean. But I think sometimes, people need someone to attach to, don’t they; at an event, they need someone to attach to, and I’m often there to interact with lots of different people, and that’s part of my purpose of being at that event, is to meet lots of people, or whatever it is, and I can sense that. And sometimes I will, because gosh, I’m saying it now, it sounds so mean, Sarah; Sarah thinks I’m so mean —
Sarah Ellis: It is mean!
Helen Tupper: — but I will say it, “It’s been lovely meeting you”. But you know, it’s because they haven’t sensed the conversation’s gone on too long. So, sometimes I have had to say, definitely I’ve had to end, because the small talk has kept going and going and going. It’s gone way past five minutes, and I’m like, “Oh, it’s been lovely meeting you, I’m just going to go catch up with a colleague”, and I’ll leave that person to attach onto someone else. I know it sounds mean, but I have done it, but after it’s gone on a really long time. Oh gosh, I feel really mean now!
Sarah Ellis: I mean, I don’t know what to say to that! I suppose, I don’t know, I think if it’s gone on for a while, I would be like, well, have we moved past the quick connection and actually are we just connecting? Because I think that’s what happens with me. I think that’s how I make actual Connections with a big C. And so, if I feel like it’s a good conversation with good chemistry, I think you sometimes, within that conversation, it moves from a quick connection to, “Oh, we’re connecting”.
Helen Tupper: I agree, but what if it’s not that? What if it’s just ongoing small talk? Then, I will have to end that chat at some point.
Sarah Ellis: I think I would at least try and, I don’t know, I think I’ve just got images of you leaving people in the middle of a big room by themselves! I think if I was going to get a coffee, I don’t think I could say that without saying, “Do you want to come and get one too?” I just don’t think I could do it.
Helen Tupper: But then, you’d be with that person all day.
Sarah Ellis: No, I wouldn’t, I would use that as a like, at least I’ve given them a home.
Helen Tupper: The coffee.
Sarah Ellis: But you know I’m not going to be the only person getting a coffee, right, there’ll be other people there?
Helen Tupper: Okay.
Sarah Ellis: So, at least I’ve given them a —
Helen Tupper: So, you’ve transitioned them to a coffee, okay.
Sarah Ellis: I think it’s what I’ve got happening in my head around, “Is that person just standing there by themselves?” Or like, “Oh, probably going to grab my seat in a minute, but I’m just going to nip over here”, and almost encourage them to, like, grab their seats. So, I just think it’s the middle of the room by themselves thing that I’m finding it harder to… and you see, I think everyone thinks I’m the mean one. But actually, I think most people —
Helen Tupper: I am not mean!
Sarah Ellis: Well, we’ll see what the listeners think when they listen to this episode! Imagine if you meet Helen now at an event, I bet you everyone will be like, “Oh my God, she wants to leave me!”
Helen Tupper: Staring, “She left them in the middle of the room!”
Sarah Ellis: I really, really hope that happens because I find it very funny.
Helen Tupper: It’s so mean.
Sarah Ellis: So, if you’re listening to this and you’re like, “Right, okay, I really want to think about this”, I would start by, first of all, maybe map all your small-talk moments that happen in a week, because there will be loads more than you imagine. There’ll be some that you’re better at than others, so give yourself credit for what you’re doing well. Figure out how you’re going to start a conversation. Are you more of a low-commitment, easy question? Are you going to give to get started, as Helen described? Then just focus on listening. I think honestly, if you listen and you’re present for those two to three minutes, it will go a long way. And I think often, we are half listening rather than whole listening. And then, start to figure out what to do in those moments where the quick connection needs to move on. It either needs to move on to a full connection, to the rest of the meeting, or you need to go and do something else; what does that look like?
I think just people do beat themselves up about not being very good at this, but I think just remember that lots of people would find this quite hard, and so you’re probably better than you imagine. And if you did these three things, asked a curious question, really listened and then don’t leave someone stranded, you’re really doing all right!
Helen Tupper: I feel like I’m going to get a barrage of emails now going, “Helen, you’re really mean!” I’m not mean, I promise!
Sarah Ellis: Or, “Do you remember the time when you left me?”
Helen Tupper: Oh, don’t!
Sarah Ellis: I mean, you told me, as part of this conversation, I said, “Oh, as an introvert, sometimes it’s quite good if you go to an event with someone, because then at least you can do the small talk together”. What did you say to me? You were like, “Oh, I don’t want to go to events with other people”, and I was like, “Oh, okay”, so you were like, “I don’t want you to come to an event with me”!
Helen Tupper: That is not quite, as someone who talks about the skill of paraphrasing, I did not say, “I don’t want to go to an event with you”. I enjoy your company. I said, “I prefer”, I think, “I prefer to go to events on my own”, because then I can just flit around the room and meet loads of people. That’s what I said. But yeah, I’m sorry if that comes across as mean.
Sarah Ellis: I’ll leave everyone to make their own judgments!
Helen Tupper: She’s gaslighting me on the podcast, everybody!
Sarah Ellis: So, we hope that’s been useful. A slightly different topic today. We thought after we’ve done some probably a bit more reflective ones in the last couple of weeks around awareness and some of those deeply thoughtful things, we were like, let’s talk about some more talk. But that’s everything for this week. As always, we really appreciate you listening. Please do share and subscribe and do all the stars and all the good stuff, because actually it does really help us. We read it all and it means that Squiggly keeps spreading far and wide. But that’s everything for this week. Thank you so much for listening and back with you again soon. Bye for now.
Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.