00:00:00: Introduction
00:01:10: The quote
00:01:26: The inspiration for the quote
00:03:57: The challenge itself
00:07:42: Ideas for action…
00:07:56: … 1: curiosity before commitment
00:09:00: … 2: slow, don’t stop
00:11:27: … 3: celebrate the wins
00:14:14: Personalise the quote
00:15:17: Final thoughts
Sarah Ellis: Hi, I’m Sarah.
Helen Tupper: And I’m Helen.
Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast. Every week, we talk about a different topic to do with work, and share some ideas and actions to help all of us navigate these increasingly Squiggly Careers with that bit more confidence and control.
Helen Tupper: And this episode is part of a short series that we decided to do for the summer, when we thought everyone could do with a little bit of inspiration, some ideas they could put into action. So, we have taken our favourite quotes. I never really thought I would talk about Sarah having favourite quotes, but it turns out you do have some favourite quotes that inspire you.
Sarah Ellis: So, the one I’ve picked for the next episode I don’t even think is a quote. I was like, “It’s a definition!”
Helen Tupper: “It’s a statement of intent!”
Sarah Ellis: It’s a statement!
Helen Tupper: So, we’ve taken our favourite ‘statements of intent’ and quotes that have been helpful for us in our careers, and we have turned them into things that you can take action with. So, this is the third episode in this series. The first one was a quote that’s worked for me, which was, “Run your own race”; the second one was a quote which has worked for Sarah, which was, “Never live the same year twice”; and today is back to me for my quote that feels useful for me in my career, which I think might be a bit contentious for people; we’ll see. It works for me. I’m going to try and turn it into something that works for other people. So, my quote that we’re going to talk about today is, “Challenge your limits, don’t limit your challenges”.
Sarah Ellis: And I’ve heard you say that before, but it always just takes me a moment just to be like —
Helen Tupper: “What does she mean?”
Sarah Ellis: Yeah. Okay, so talk to us about where’s that come from and perhaps, what does that mean for you?
Helen Tupper: Yeah, do you know what? I can answer one of those better than the other. So, where has it come from? I don’t know, it’s these bits of wisdom. It makes me think of that book, you know the book by Liz Gilbert, Big Magic, that’s it.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah.
Helen Tupper: She talks about the genius that comes into the room and if you don’t catch it, it goes onto somebody else. I feel that’s a bit like with me and quotes. They come in, I don’t where they come, they come in —
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I really remember that book, The Origin Story. Also, I’ve tried to talk you into sharing origin stories. I remember when we were writing Gremlins, I was like, “We need to do the origin story”, and I think you just don’t connect to that, to where things came from.
Helen Tupper: No. So, I don’t know, it came into some kind of room or a book, or something, the ‘challenge your limits, don’t limit your challenges’, so I can’t answer that one, to be honest. But it did stick. And so, what I can say is why did it stick? I think this really resonated with me around the time that we were starting Squiggly, because at the time, full-time job at Virgin, launching new business with Virgin, had quite a lot going on. I think it was before I had my first child, so that wasn’t quite happening. But there were lots of things starting to happen, so Virgin, Squiggly, the kid thing came on the agenda; it happened!
Sarah Ellis: Knowing you, it probably was on an agenda somewhere!
Helen Tupper: Probably on an agenda! And then obviously, MBA started, and it was all kind of lots of stuff happening. And I got a lot of challenge from other people, where I felt they were placing their limits on me. And I think with the ‘challenge your limits’ thing, the word ‘your’ is probably the most important thing for me in that quote. Because, what I started to feel, other people were saying to me, “Oh, you’re going to have to let something go, that’s too much to do. You need to make a choice. Something’s going to break, you’re going to drop a plate”, you know, all of that chat.
Sarah Ellis: Quite negative?
Helen Tupper: Quite negative, which I think was hopefully coming from a place of care, they don’t want me to fail, or not succeed, but it was also coming from their perspective of what’s possible. And I believe that that looks different for different people. And so, I think that ‘challenge your limits, don’t limit your challenges’ really resonated for me, because it stopped me from letting go of things that were important to me because of what other people thought I could or couldn’t do.
Sarah Ellis: When you were in that moment, so I obviously remember you in that moment, because we’ve known each other for so long now, there’s not many moments I now don’t remember about your life, but I do remember that being quite a stressful time for you. I can conjure up images of us sitting in coffee shops and you look really quite like, “Wow, there is a lot happening at the moment”. And definitely your reaction to that was not, “Well, let’s take some things away”, it wasn’t about subtracting. So, how in that moment do you think that was helpful? How did you find your way through, I suppose what was a potentially knotty moment, but perhaps didn’t get to that point; perhaps that’s what people were anticipating was going to happen?
Helen Tupper: I think the thing to recognise about challenging your limits, not limiting your challenges is it is still challenging. That’s the whole point, this is not easy. This is something that probably does feel a bit difficult to do, and so I think that’s part of the process, because you’re probably doing something that you haven’t done before, or you’re doing something on top of what you’re already doing. There’s an element of the sort of courage zone going on here. Last year, we wrote a book on top of our day jobs. That was a challenge, that was definitely a challenge. It wasn’t easy at times, it was difficult, that was a challenge that we decided to do. We are now considering a PhD next year. That is a challenge that we will or will not decide to do. So, I don’t wake up every day and go, “Today, I’m going to do a PhD; tomorrow, I’m going to write a book”. But there are certain moments in time where I think you have to pick a challenge and you recognise that challenge is a push beyond where you are today. But I think those moments where you pick a challenge are the moments when other people will tell you to pull it down. And what I’m saying is, if you pick the challenges that are right for you and you put the right support around it, the stuff that we’re going to talk about in the actions that I think worked for me, I think you can push past some of those things, and I don’t think you should be constrained by other people’s limits that they want to put on you.
Sarah Ellis: And I suppose the upside for this, the ‘what would be better because of it?’ is I think this how you explore your potential, by doing this you’ve not done before; and also, how you gain confidence that you can probably do more than you give yourself credit for. So, I’m thinking about some challenges that people would set for themselves that you would never set, like running a marathon for the first time.
Helen Tupper: I mean…!
Sarah Ellis: Who knows though?!
Helen Tupper: We’re challenging my limits!
Sarah Ellis: This is the moment where she’s like, “No, I am going to!” That, I might question but, hey, who knows? But I know a couple of people who have done, say, like the London Marathon who weren’t runners before, or did it for a charity, or they just perhaps would have previously limited themselves, or other people might have limited them, to go, “Oh, yeah, but you’re not really a runner, or you’re not really into fitness”, or whatever. But they have set themselves something that’s gone beyond where they were before. And I think some of the outcomes of doing this are very positive around both capability and confidence. Because almost, it doesn’t really matter what it is. Once you’ve done some of these things, that I feel are just challenging for you, you probably then go, “Oh, okay, well I could do that again.
Helen Tupper: I tried. You know, we talk about with confidence gremlins, one of the things that helps you to cage a confidence gremlin is having moments of pride. And these moments, where I’ve challenged by limits, are massive moments of pride. They weren’t always easy, back to the difficult point, but they were moments where I had a lot of pride.
Sarah Ellis: So, let’s move on to these actions. Now we’ve hopefully convinced — I feel like we’ve tried really hard to convince people that this isn’t as relentless as it sounds.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, I hope not. No, I don’t think. I’m looking at my actions now, I don’t think these are relentless. Well, you can give me some feedback.
Sarah Ellis: No, go on then, action one?
Helen Tupper: Action number one, curiosity before commitment. So, I think if there is a challenge that you want to go after, something difficult, maybe other people are going, “Oh, maybe don’t do that”. I think before you go, “Well, I am going to do it, I am going to start that PhD, I am going to do that new job, I am going to do whatever”, I think aim for curiosity first. Don’t blindly commit to things that are challenging. Go find someone who has done the thing you want to do, go spend time just getting a bit closer to it so you can understand the reality of it, understand what might need to change to make it possible. You’re not trying to critique and kill it, but I do think just before you say, “I am going to do this”, just having a kind of a moment where you are curious, I would aim for that first.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it’s almost doing a bit of due diligence, isn’t it, which doesn’t sound as nice curiosity, but we are really trying to kind of figure out, does this feel like the right challenge? Because I think it’s not just about any challenge, it’s about the right challenge for you.
Helen Tupper: Like number two?
Sarah Ellis: Okay, so what next, yeah?
Helen Tupper: Slow, don’t stop. Okay, let me explain. So, I think that back to the, I’m not saying this is always going to be easy. Like, if you’re trying to do something new or on top of what you’re already doing, it’s probably not going to be easy. And there are times where, it reminds me of the Banksy quote about, “When you get tired, learn to rest, not quit”. I think there are times when you’re doing this that it will feel quite hard, and I think the temptation there is to give up, in all honesty, “Oh, it’s too hard. I should have listened to what everyone said. Oh, I made a mistake. I shouldn’t be doing this”, and stop. And I think what is better in those moments is to just slow down and go, “Okay, maybe I can’t make this work this week. But it’s okay, I’ll pick it up again on Monday”. Because I think there’s often a lot of emotion tied up with that like, “Oh, it’s too hard, it’s too difficult, I’m doing it wrong, I should just stop it”. I think there’s often a lot of emotion. And if you slow down, sometimes the emotion goes away and I think you can look at it a bit more objectively. So, that’s my second insight on it.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I guess the point with any challenge, and certainly the challenges in the context we’re talking about them today, is they’re likely to be over a relatively long period of time. It’s unlikely to be a week or a month, these challenges. And so, the longer these challenges are, a bit like The Long Win stuff from Cath Bishop, you can’t speed the whole time. And if you talk about the intensity of that challenge, there have been moments where that intensity would have felt like 90%, 100%. You actually do need to almost pre-emptively go, “When are the 90%, 100% moments? When are the 10% moments, knowing that’s okay?” That’s the, “I’ve really slowed down, but I’ve not quite stopped”.
Helen Tupper: Yeah.
Sarah Ellis: I think that’s quite helpful for people, to me. I think I do imagine it as a bit of a percentage, like where am I on that percentage?
Helen Tupper: I often feel like speed is a choice. I feel like if I’m committed to doing something, I’m committed, decision made. But then, speed is a choice. So, even using the PhD as an example, we have a view of how quickly we would like to do that. If we do it, we have a view of how quickly we would like to do it. And there could be a point in time where we go, “Do you know what? We did want to do it that quickly, but we can choose to do it, we could choose to take another year, and we could choose to slow down so that this feels possible for us”. But I think, just think about slowing, don’t make the first thought stopping, and then you keep going with it, would be my thing.
I don’t need my phone for the last one because I remember what the last one is.
Sarah Ellis: Go on then.
Helen Tupper: Celebrate the wins. I think if you are challenging your limits, you deserve to celebrate your wins, because it obviously is not easy, and there will be lots of good things you’re doing. You might have got a brilliant bit of feedback from somebody who has seen that you’re trying really hard on this thing; or maybe you’ve decided you’re going to start a newsletter and you reach 1,000 followers of your newsletter. Celebrate that win. I think this links a lot with Angela Duckworth’s stuff on Grit, which I think you need for this. And she talks about the progress and the positivity that helps you keep progressing with the things that matter to you. And I think celebrating the wins helps you see progress because you’re like, “Oh, I’m on the way, it’s working”; and then also, helps you feel positive, because you’re kind of just recognising the hard work.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think I was just reflecting on how we do that. I don’t think either of us actually are that motivated by it, like we don’t actually do it that often. But I think if you look back through our WhatsApp scroll, which I would never want anyone to ever do, ever —
Helen Tupper: Oh my gosh, can you imagine?!
Sarah Ellis: — because I just think people would never want to talk to us ever again. They’d be like, “Wow, there’s relentless, and then there’s you two!” But I think you could spot the WhatsApps where we both consciously go, “Oh, we should take a moment, though, to just recognise”.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, “We should recognise that that’s a big thing”.
Sarah Ellis: I think that’s probably sometimes something that you and I could both get better at. I think we both instinctively know it and feel it, but because we don’t naturally spend that much — often we’ll be quite on to the next thing. I think there is a point about challenges of like, don’t move on too soon; that ability to actually see the successes both along the way, the smaller successes, but then actually before you move on to the next thing, just pause and feeling really proud.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, I do hold it, I really do. “Challenge your limits, don’t limit your challenges”, it comes back to me in those moments where I almost have a little bit of doubt or I hear that from other people and I go, “Hang on a minute, Helen. If you were going to challenge your limits here, what would it look like?” So, it is quite propelling for me. It’s not blind belief, but it is a propelling statement that helps me just kind of go, “Okay, well, how could this –” like the PhD is such a good example, because you could go, “Wow, that’s a massive commitment, it’s going to take loads of time. It’s easy to say no to”. But then if I go, “Well, if you are going to challenge the limits that you’re creating for yourself or that other people are creating for you, what would that look like?” And I just find that a much more helpful way of thinking about doing some bigger stuff I’ve not done before, a much more motivating way. So, I guess that’s how it’s worked for me.
Sarah Ellis: So, I suppose if you’re listening to this now, one of the things that you might want to do is just think about, what does this look like for you, because I think it is incredibly personal. Also, you might go, “It’s not for me”. The point is we’ve chosen some quotes/statements that really work for us. I think it is just as interesting, if you’ve listened today and just gone, “That just doesn’t work for me”, there’s loads to learn from that like, “Well, why not? What is it you don’t like? What would you use instead?” Because the one thing we do want to prompt all of us to be doing, we all want to be continually exploring what we can do and our potential. And in my experience, people usually have more to give than they know. So, I think that’s kind of the point here. So, whatever is going to propel you to spend a bit of time in that courage zone, do things you’ve not done before, I think that’s what you’re looking for, that’s the purpose of this, whether that is about challenging your limits or whether that’s something different. Maybe just be asking yourself now like, “Well, what would work for me?”
Helen Tupper: Amazing. So, hopefully you found it helpful, we would love some feedback. It’s obviously the third episode in the series so if you’re finding it useful, if you have any quotes that have inspired your career, please let us know. We are helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.
Sarah Ellis: But that’s everything for this week. Thank you so much for listening. If you are listening during the summer, we hope you’re having a lovely August and we’re back with you again next week. Bye for now.
Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.