00:00:00: Introduction
00:01:25: Benefits of being a role model
00:02:46: Definition of a role model
00:05:30: Three areas of discussion…
00:05:49: … 1: decide your role-model focus
00:12:50: … 2: reflect on your role models
00:18:56: … 3: think practically
00:28:14: Final thoughts
Sarah Ellis: Hi, I’m Sarah.
Helen Tupper: And I’m Helen.
Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast. Every week, we talk about a different topic to do with work, and share some ideas and actions to help us all navigate our increasingly Squiggly Careers with that bit more confidence and control.
Helen Tupper: And if you are a fan of the Squiggly Careers podcast, you probably already know that we have a weekly newsletter called Squiggly Careers in Action. But if you are new, we suggest you sign up, because you’ll get all the links to the podcast, you’ll get all of our tools to help you keep learning, and you’ll get some secret-ish behind-the-scenes stuff too; I mean secret-ish, it’s probably on LinkedIn already. But if you’re not on LinkedIn every day, sign up to the newsletter and you’ll see some of the fun stuff that we get to do as well.
Sarah Ellis: You get to watch Helen how-tos, which lots of people are talking to me about, you with your giant yellow Post-it Notes!
Helen Tupper: I do think sometimes you must be like, “What is she doing now?”
Sarah Ellis: I’ve gone past that.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, have you? Great, good to know. Freedom is one of my values, so I do appreciate that! So today, the topic that we are tackling is role modelling, but perhaps from a slightly different perspective than we might normally talk about role modelling. I think we might sometimes think about who is your role model; and today, we’re going to think a bit more about the benefits of being a role model and how it is something that you can be quite intentional about, because there are quite a lot of benefits for you in your career about being a role model. When you’re a role model, it can mean that you can pull people and possibilities towards you, because they want to be connected to this thing that they kind of see and admire you for. I think it is also quite useful for you to building your brand. It can help you differentiate yourself if you’re known for something, and you can evidence and talk about that with confidence to other people. So, building your brand, pulling possibilities towards you, creating a sort of community of people that want to spend time with you, really strong benefits from you thinking about, “How can I be a role model?”
Sarah Ellis: And I think our hope from listening to this episode is that everyone will realise that you can be a role model, and that there is something that you probably already role model, that you’re perhaps just not giving yourself credit for. Because actually, as we’ve been exploring this and thinking about how we can be helpful as you’re listening, it does take a bit of reflection, because I don’t think we go around asking ourselves, like, “What am I role modelling today?”
Helen Tupper: That is actually a good question, “What am I role modelling today?” It’s quite interesting. It’s not the one we were asking this, because I think sometimes what you might role model is not what you want to role model. Because I might think, “Well, I’ve role modelled being busy”. Is that really what I want the people that I work with to think about when they think about me?
Sarah Ellis: Definitely an episode where we’ve gone in a few different directions. So, obviously, I turned to ChatGPT to give me some answers. I was like, “Oh, I wonder what it will say if I put in, ‘What does a good role model look like?'” And actually, the definition that it came back with, I actually really connected with, and I was like, “Oh, I’ve got a new friend in ChatGPT!”
Helen Tupper: I like that. You can just exist on your own at home with your friend.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, oh, maybe I’ll replace you with Helen chatbot!
Helen Tupper: I actually think you probably would! It’d probably be less random, you might need the random setting.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah! And what it came back with as a definition, it said, “Being a role model is often more about daily habits and quiet consistency than grand gestures”. And that made it feel more accessible for me. I couldn’t answer that question straight away, like, “What are you a role model for; and have you really thought about that?” And I thought, “Oh, I don’t think I have”. That’s not a question I’ve asked myself at all. Whereas this idea of probably to be a good role model, you do have to be consistent. That comes from the actions you take, from the habits you’ve got. It’s not about being shiny and having to shout the loudest, which it might be for some people, depending on what they want to role model. But I think sometimes, the reason we don’t think of ourselves as role models is when you look at role models, people you describe in that way, they are people with really big profiles, they’re maybe larger-than-life figures, they probably also feel very far away from you. So, they’re great because they’re really inspiring or quite aspirational, but then you can’t connect the dots between that person and then you and your reality.
So, I think what we’re trying to do today is close that gap and go, “Actually, there is something in this for everyone”.
Helen Tupper: But you know, it’s nice to have role models. Like, when I think about some of the people that I admire and I look to, I was saying to Sarah, I’m part of this WhatsApp group at the moment where people post their updates, and I admire some of the things. Some of the behaviours they role model, I think, “I really like that about that person. That’s something that brings a benefit to me”. So, it’s nice to have, it’s weird. I think it’s a weird tension in that it’s nice to have a role model, it’s nice to see somebody who behaves and acts in a way that inspires you, but we never then think about, “Well, how can I be a role model?” But it is nice for people to have role models. And so, I think it’s just thinking about, it’s not egotistical to think about, “How can I be a role model for others?” but it does need to be authentic. I think you need to think about, “What feels authentically me?”
So, to make this practical, because as Sarah and I were saying, it does feel like a bit of a new area to think about, “How can I become a role model?” we’ve got three different areas that we are going to talk through, which is going to take you from this broader perspective on what role modelling might look like and how it can bring benefits to your career, into something that you can actually take action with.
Sarah Ellis: So, we’re going to start with deciding your role-model focus, and I think this is where it starts to feel more realistic. So, we don’t have to be a role model for everything or for everyone, we can make some choices here. And the thing that I found most helpful was I asked myself, “What do I feel comfortable, consistent and capable of?”
Helen Tupper: And what was your answer to that?
Sarah Ellis: Being curious. So, I got to a behaviour or a skill. So, I was like, “Well, I’m comfortable being curious because I’m naturally interested in lots of things”. I’ve been consistently curious in my career, so I’m okay, I’ve got a track record of it already. That increases my confidence. And I feel like I’m capable. People have given me feedback about my curiosity. I think I’m good at collecting and connecting dots, so a level of capability that I would feel okay about being a role model in being curious. Can I name people who are more curious than me? Yes. It’s not like I’m like, “Oh, I’m the best at it”. But I was like, curiosity felt like a territory. And then, the other one for me was something about continual learning or being work in progress. So, I think again, I was like, “Am I comfortable with this idea of I always want to be better, I always want to keep learning?” I was like, “Yes, that’s sort of my DNA and our DNA”. I consistently want to do that because it’s really important to me that in the work that we do, we’ve always practised what we preach. So, we would never, in a workshop or in a programme that we run, ever talk about anything that I wasn’t prepared to do. And in most of the case, we’ve done it ourselves and you’ve tried and you’ve failed, or you’ve got halfway there or it has worked. And I do feel capable of, I think I naturally have a drive of always want to keep learning, probably linked to my curiosity.
So, I got to probably a mixture of some personality traits, some skills, some behaviours versus I think my starting point, which I found too hard. I was like, “Should I be a role model for lifelong learning across the world?” I felt like it should be this big statement. I actually was like, “Oh no, that felt too hard as my starting point”. So, that sort of comfortable, consistent, capable, which is a bit more low-key, I suppose just got me going in terms of reflecting.
Helen Tupper: Well, I suppose the other one feels a bit too much like an aspiration, it feels too hard, whereas you’re starting where you are. So, when I get to the comfortable, consistent, and capable, I go to building relationships. I feel that’s really comfortable to me, I love doing it, do it an awful lot, I’ve got a good track record. I’m like, “Okay, that’s an option”. I would say growing things, I love growing things, whether it’s a newsletter, please sign up, or a LinkedIn account or a business or people. I love growing things, I get a lot of energy from it, I’ve done it a lot in lots of different contexts. So, you’ve got the capability thing. I think it does take this idea of being a role model for something very aspirational into something that you’re already doing well. You’re not starting from scratch with this. This is probably something you’re already known for. We’re just thinking about how can you use that to help more people, how do you make it more visible?
Sarah Ellis: And also, where this took you and I to, which I think probably is just as important, is we also started to list, and I think we had a much longer list, of all the things that we didn’t want to be a role model for. And I was like, “That’s good to know”. So, both of us were like, “We’re two women who run a business”. And so, female entrepreneurship, we were like, “No, that is not that!” But that is good, obviously it’s good, but we were like, “Yeah, but we don’t feel like we’re the role models”. I suppose it’s probably because just somehow, it didn’t feel comfortable for us, it’s not the story that we tell, I’m not sure we’ve got the capability. I feel like I’ve got way more capability in learning than I do going, “Well, I’ve run one company ever. I’ve worked for loads more people than I have done my own thing”. So, I was like, well, that didn’t feel right for either of us.
You could talk about, we both have moved out of big corporates to doing your own thing. So, you could be a role model for a career change. Neither of us actually went to leadership. Yeah, we both care about it, but neither of us went to —
Helen Tupper: I don’t think I’m consistently capable!
Sarah Ellis: Yeah! So, neither of us went to that as an area. Or even, I was thinking about being more introverted, because that is something that people often talk to me about, because I will share, “Oh, I’m more introverted”, or people know because they’ve listened to the podcast and they remember and they talk to me about it. And I have thought before, I was like, “Oh, am I a useful role model for somebody who is more introverted?” and actually, that realisation really helped me, and I was a much better leader and I think I was much better at my jobs once I almost accepted my introversion. And actually, I don’t feel comfortable with that and role modelling that, I think probably just because, I don’t know, I feel like there are people a lot more introverted than me. I think I’m probably more ambivert-y, but slightly more introverted. And also, that just didn’t feel like such a natural space versus some of those other areas.
So sometimes, knowing what you don’t want to be is almost easier than what you do want to be, so perhaps even starting there. So, you might want to start with all the things you don’t want to be a role model for. And then, I wonder from that whether you will get to, “Oh, but I wouldn’t mind being a role model for this or for that”. I think my brain went that way round.
Helen Tupper: Would you ever ask somebody, “What do you think I’m a role model for?” Do you think people could answer it?
Sarah Ellis: I think they could if they knew you well. We could probably answer it for each other. I would have got to relationships or connections for you definitely. So, if you work together frequently and also with enough depth, that people have seen you over time, I think they could give you at least a perspective. I was saying to you that someone said to me this week, and I was meeting them for the first time, and it did make me wonder a bit about how I came across, he just sort of stopped the conversation, he went, “You do know you’re really curious?”
Helen Tupper: That could be two different things!
Sarah Ellis: I was like, “Oh, have I just been really frantic in this conversation?” And I actually did say yes. I was like, “Yeah, I’ve heard that before”. And I was like, obviously that’s not a bad thing. But I was like, that is interesting that he felt the need to tell me! And so, I think yeah, I think you could. People you know, I think you could do it in a really formal way, informal way. Probably an easier question is, “What stands out to you about how I work, or the way I work?” I reckon our team would say about me, “Oh, you’re always –” I share a lot of links to learn from. We have a Links to Learn From Teams channel and I think it probably stands out that I share a lot in that channel.
Helen Tupper: I might ask our team this. I might take that question away, see what they say, see how consistent it is.
Sarah Ellis: See also, how hard is it to answer, yeah.
Helen Tupper: An action for after we’ve done this podcast. So, the second thing that we think is useful, when you’re thinking about approaching how to be a role model, is to reflect on your role models. And the reason this is useful is because by reflecting on your role models, you’re able to think about, “Well, what do I like about how they role model?” And it might be a combination of what they’re saying or how they’re saying or how they’re coming across. And you’re going from, “Oh, I could role model relationships”, to, “Well, how might I do that? Based on what resonates with me, how could I do that?” And you’re not trying to be them, it’s not that at all. But I think you are taking some inspiration from how they do it, and that moves it into something a bit more practical.
So, for example, I was saying to Sarah that, and this is such a name drop, so forgive the name drop, but I recently met James Clear on a podcast.
Sarah Ellis: For the second time.
Helen Tupper: For the second time.
Sarah Ellis: Because we’ve had him on our podcast.
Helen Tupper: We have had him on our podcast. I think the second time was in person, so I think I got to —
Sarah Ellis: Know him a bit more?
Helen Tupper: Yeah, I mean that might be a stretch. I got to see him in action! I got to sort of observe how he did what he did. And so, if I reflect on him being a role model and what was it that I admired, he was just very, very clear in his communication. I would ask him a question and he would think and he was pause, and I just thought, “Wow, the credibility of your communication is, of course, what you’re saying, but it’s the way you say it. You have a very clear pace, you are very calm in your approach, you come across confident without being arrogant”. That would be the second thing actually. So, for me, the clarity of his communication was definitely something I admired. And then, the second was just a lack of ego. He wasn’t trying to present himself as an expert, he was trying to present himself as someone who was passionate about his topic and had opinions on it. He was confident in what he was saying, but also just a real lack of ego and arrogance. And for somebody that’s got quite a lot of like external success —
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, validation.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, there’s a lot that he could have an ego about, but there was none of it. And so, I thought, when I’m thinking about if I want to become a role model for growth, for example, how you grow businesses and people to be better, I think, how do you come across with clarity; how do you make sure that people engage with you without having an ego? They would definitely be things that I would take from what I admire in him. What about you? Reflecting on your role models, what do you like?
Sarah Ellis: Well, it made me think back to the leaders that I’ve worked for, who were role models for me in a very day-to-day way, because you see them in action and actually, back to consistency, you see what they do well in a really consistent way. And I remember being full of admiration for lots. I’ve worked for some very good people. But particularly when I worked for a lady called Sarah, I remember responding really well to just her kind of everydayness in her leadership. So, actually, similar in terms of lack of ego, talks to everybody, engages everybody, but also she used very everyday words. And her way of bringing things to life was very simple but without being simplistic. And you just felt like, even if she wrote an email, you always felt like she was writing it in her way in her words, and everything was always very clear, but warm at the same time.
If I think now about one of the things that I really care about in Amazing If, is actually the words that we use, how we say what we say, and I really care about it. And I almost think some of our team who might sometimes get a bit annoyed at that can blame Sarah rather than me, blame a different Sarah! But I think she inspired me, through watching her leadership style. And she is really different to me. I think she’d be much more extrovert than me, her personality is different. So, it’s not like I’m trying to role model in the same way. But you know when you’ve seen something in close quarters done so well, I think then you can work out what’s your version of that? And actually, I was thinking, whether I am today or not, but I do think I almost want to role model, that we can use normal, everyday words in how we communicate at work. I actually think I do.
Helen Tupper: You are a role model for that.
Sarah Ellis: I do really care about that. I think I consistently care.
Helen Tupper: I was about to say, “I’ve seen this for many, many years”, because I don’t know whether it’s the companies I’ve worked for or just maybe I was just less aware of it, but I think before we worked together, my default was to corporate speak like, “I think we should strategize over the direction that we’re exploring for the future of our organisation, and hypothesize about some alternative approaches”.
Sarah Ellis: “Do some double-clicking”.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, all of this, and it would just come from my mouth. And then you’d be like, “Should we just have a thinking session?” Or like, “You don’t need the 20 words that you just said, Helen. We’re just gonna have a think and talk”, like the simplicity of the words. You are a role model. It’s not simplicity in its entirety. There’s the power of language or the simplicity of language. You are a role model for that, definitely.
Sarah Ellis: I think what’s interesting about that, for everybody listening, is I think if you had worked with me earlier in my career, I don’t think that is a natural talent. So, I do think I learned by doing and I learned by seeing it from other people. So, I think other people have inspired that in me. Whereas something like curiosity or continual learning, I’m like, “That’s me”, that’s me through and through. I’ve got natural talent there. Whereas the words and the communication, I think that’s the teams I’ve worked in, that’s the people I’ve worked for, it’s the people I admire and look up to, they’ve all done that really well. And I’m like, “Well, I want to do that too, and I want to help and inspire other people to do it at the same time”.
Helen Tupper: So, if you’re going to work through this process then, so part one, we’ve decided what we want to be a role model for by reflecting on those prompts; then we thought about, “Well, how do I want to role model? Let’s borrow a bit of brilliance from some sort of role models that work for us”; and then the third bit, I think, is where you get really practical and you think, “Well, what is it that people will see? If I’m role modelling this behaviour or expertise or whatever it is, if I’m known as a role model for this, then what are people actually going to see and what are they going to hear me say?” And I think the more practical you can get here, like in an average week at work, if you’re going to role model curiosity, what are people going to see and what are they going to hear you say? If I’m going to role model growth, exactly the same kind of question. So, maybe we’ll answer them as a way of bringing that to life. So, what would you say people will see? If you are going to consciously be a role model for curiosity, what would people see you do in an average week at work?
Sarah Ellis: So, we do have a Team’s channel called Links to Learn From that everybody contributes to. I think I over-contribute in a good way, as in lots of those links do come from me. I will see something and I’ll be like, “Oh, that’s really interesting. I’ll share that with the team”. Those things can be anything from an event that’s going on, an article I’ve read. I emailed somebody this morning actually who’s written something really interesting on coaching using chatbots, that was behind a paywall, and I am interested enough to email them and say, “Please can you send me the article because I can’t access it”, and then I will share it with our team. So, I think they would see me sharing lots of my curiosity with them, not really forcing it on people. I would never then follow up and be like, “Well, did you read it? What did you learn?” I’m just a bit like, “Well, it’s there if you want to”. And that’s not just links, that’s also, “Oh, at the weekend, I read Careless People”. It’s the books I’ve read, it’s the podcasts I’ve listened to, it’s the things that people have told me that I would then probably repeat.
Then, what they would probably hear me say is, I am always really interested in what other people are learning. So, I would probably be asking people, “What learning have you got to look forward to over the next quarter?” because I want them to be thinking about their learning and I know that’s hard to do, so I think I act as a bit of a prompt for that. But I also take accountability for the learning that we do as a team together at Amazing If. So, I would always be thinking about, “Who could be interesting to come and talk to our team?” I don’t ever want us to fall into that trap of being a team that helps other people to learn, and then we don’t have any space to learn. I actually hear that from lots of organisations. They’ll work in learning and development, and I’ll be like, “When’s the last time you did any learning for you?” And they’re like, “Well, never, because I’m too busy helping other people”.
So, recently we did a session on storytelling, we’ve got something coming up on inclusive leadership, we’re going to do something on job crafting. So, I think it’s just on my mind all the time. And so, that’s what I would be saying.
Helen Tupper: I think from my perspective, what you’ll see Sarah say, I would see you going on slightly random but curious like evening talks. So, you’ll be like, “Oh, I’ve signed up for this Reid Hoffman thing”, or, “Tonight I’m going to…” So, I see you doing random learnings. And then, I will always hear you say, like in the previous podcast, you’re like, “Oh, I just sat down and am reading a book on judgment”. Of course you were!
Sarah Ellis: That was for a podcast!
Helen Tupper: I know, but it’s just a constant, it’s just a constant view. So, I see you doing, and I hear you say it continually. So, I think, yeah, it’s a really useful thing to reflect on. I think mine, it’s interesting, because I haven’t really thought about the relationships or growth. I haven’t really thought about, “Am I being an intentional role model for those things?” But if I was, I think people would, well, they would see me going to events.
Sarah Ellis: All the time! I’d be like, “What are you doing tonight?” “Oh, I’m going to this, I’m going to that”. And I’m just like, “Oh, it makes me tired just hearing about it”. But I see that you live your life through connection all the time.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, so you would see it. You would just see where I spend my time is all around those. And then what do I say? What would I say? If I was going to role model how to build relationships for your career, what would people hear me say?
Sarah Ellis: I think you would often say, “I was at this thing last night”, I hear you say that phrase quite a lot. I’ll be like, “Oh, I was asleep”. I mean that literally is true.
Helen Tupper: I did say to you today, I was like, “Oh, I’ve been invited to this thing and I said yes, because I might meet some interesting people”. You probably hear me say that.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah. So, either you’ve been to something or you’ve been to something. You’ve always been or are going to something, and this is something beyond the day job. And your reason for saying yes is actually never the content, it’s always the connections. It’s the exact opposite of me. So, I’m like, “I want to learn about the thing”. So, Reid Hoffman, I’m not going to make friends with Reid Hoffman, though we would like Reid on the podcast obviously, but I want to learn the content. Whereas you could go to the same thing but you’re going with five people.
Helen Tupper: Yes, “Who can come with me?”
Sarah Ellis: I did take one person, I was really proud of that, whereas you’re taking ten, and then you’re doing something afterwards, because then you’re like, “Oh, and then we’ll do this”. And I’m like, “Right, okay”, and you’ve curated a whole evening of connection between people. And so, I think that’s what people would see and that’s what you would say. You would also prioritise it. So, that’s the other thing I hear you say. I think you literally said to me this week, I think I was pushing you on something, you were like, “I can’t do that”. Actually, that’s right, you left a call that we were on because you were like, “I’m going out”, and I was like, “Okay”!
Helen Tupper: It was overrunning, to be fair.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah by like two minutes.
Helen Tupper: Do you know, that was so funny, because there was a conflict between your curiosity and my desire for connection. I was like, “The meeting is done and I’m meeting someone”.
Sarah Ellis: You were done, and I think also you’d got what you needed, clearly. Whereas I think that conversation after you left kept going for 20 more minutes.
Helen Tupper: Oh my gosh, I’m so glad I left!
Sarah Ellis: But I learned something very useful.
Helen Tupper: Of course you did, because you were being curious. But I was off to connect.
Sarah Ellis: And also, I think the person, he clearly wasn’t quite done, and I was like, I wanted to —
Helen Tupper: Yeah, he was like you. You’re both two very curious people.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, whereas you were just like, “I need to get ready, I am going out”. And I was like, “Okay”. And do you know what, it worked perfect. We were better because of it. As a team, we did everything we needed to do. And so, I suppose I would see you saying no, and I would see you making some choices and being boundaried in a way that you are often not. But the one time that you are is actually when you want to create connection, because that’s what you role model. So, I’m like, you know what you say yes to what you say no to?
Helen Tupper: Yeah.
Sarah Ellis: I think it’s probably quite an important part of role modelling.
Helen Tupper: Well, and I think there may be some things you are unintentionally doing now, because I didn’t think, “I’m role modelling connection, I’m going to leave this meeting now”. But I think it is, if you want to be a role model, if I’m going to consciously role model building relationships so that others can benefit from my role modelling, I would maybe take those things and think, “Well, okay, if that’s what it’s looking like at the moment, how would I do more of that? What would that look like this week? What would I say this week that reinforced that role modelling? What would people see this week that really brought that? I think there’s a useful thing in going, “What am I seeing and saying now?” But I think the benefit is, “What am I going to do more of?”
Sarah Ellis: Well, our conversation today has just made me think much more about how am I going to be intentional about being a role model? So, in my head, I’ve already written the book called The Words We Use at Work. I’m like, “Yes, that’s what I’m going to do”!
Helen Tupper: You have an ongoing list of books!
Sarah Ellis: And I was like, I love it, The Words We Use at Work. And I think sometimes at the moment, our team get quite used to me talking about the words that we use at work. And then occasionally, I’ll jump on a call with somebody and almost we’ll be live editing, and I’ll be trying to bring to life, “Okay, we don’t need five sentences here. Okay, we don’t need to say ‘rationalise’, we could say ‘reason'”. But just the fact that I’ve started to connect those dots. And I think probably also, it will mean that I would prioritise more time supporting the team, rather than just being like, “Oh, this is something I care about”, there’s a difference between something you care about and something you want to role model. Because I think role modelling instinctively has to involve other people.
Helen Tupper: Well, it’s, “What is the benefit that brings to other people?” It brings a benefit to you.
Sarah Ellis: There’s no point in me just caring, because well, there is, but if you want to be a role model, I think you’re suddenly going into more the impact that you have on other people. And I’m like, if people could write, say, the proposals that we do in a simple and straightforward way, I’m like, that would make their life easier, because it’s kind of less words, it would make our partner’s life easier, because it’s really easy to understand. So, I can see how that role modelling can have a really positive impact in loads of different places and with lots of different people. So now, I’m like, “Now, I really care”. Just talking about it from this, I’m like, “Oh!”
Helen Tupper: She’s in, she’s converted, she’s a converter!
Sarah Ellis: I really feel sorry for our team!
Helen Tupper: I’m going to ask them for feedback, and you’re going to start role modelling curiosity in every meeting!
Sarah Ellis: “The words we use at work, everyone”!
Helen Tupper: So, I think this is quite a reflective episode. You know sometimes, it’s like, “Here are some quick actions”. I think this one is, you know, there are three elements you need to go through. And I think it’s a choice; do you want to do this?
Sarah Ellis: You don’t have to do this, yeah.
Helen Tupper: You don’t have to be a role model, but it is a choice, and I do think it’s powerful for you and your development. I think it’s powerful for the people that work with and around you too. So, we will summarise the three things that we talked through, on how to of be a role model and gets those benefits for your career, in the PodSheet, which you can get either from signing up to Squiggly Careers in Action or just go to our website amazingif.com. And I’d really like to get some feedback on this. I would really like to know what people want to be a role model for. So, you can email us, helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com . Let us know.
Sarah Ellis: But that’s everything for this week. Thank you so much for listening and we’ll be back with you again soon. Bye for now.